Cryptic Clues

[Morsul the Dark]

and for once i knew that too sadly saucey had beat me by a good long while

[The Saucepan Man]

I didn't realise you were such a dab hand with linens.Only those composed of threads such as this one ... :rolleyes:

Next up:

Plague victim features in novel transposed after discovery of old city.

[Morsul the Dark]

well lets see...THe best-known symtom of the plague were red rings(from which derived ring around the rosey) the symptom being Rings

in novel Lord of the Rings

Transposed changed moved....War of the Rings?

Im assuming because the War of the ring is slightly less detail than LOTR you want to know which city(an old one is Missing from the text) and since I do not

for now my guess is

The War of the ring

(i think i got the first part right(the plague thing) the rest is rubbish)

[The Saucepan Man]

I am afraid that you are on the wrong track, Morsul ...

[Turambar]

That's a tough one! It's "features" not "featured", right?

*goes to ponder*

[Morsul the Dark]

you know what im betting it is "featured"

Earendil the mariner?
He found the undying lands but then chose to be immortal for his wife so transposed after discovering the lost city he was a victem of morgoths wrath(he went to ask the valar for help)

at first i thought "Plague victim features in novel " transposed meant that entire phrase was an anagram for an old city but unless i missed it i couldnt find any cities that would be an anagram of that phrase

Sauce: am i ever actually on the right track ;)

[Mithalwen]

My guess is that "Plague victim" is the straight clue ..and that has just given me an idea of where to look... :D But I don't have the book on me *Curses*

[Mithalwen]

Telemnar was the King of Gondor who died int eh great plague but I can't make the clue fit. Meh...

[Turambar]

I thought old city was the straight clue and I note that M. Michel was a victim of The Plague (Camus), but Michel Delving doesn't fit the rest of the clue and in any case Michel isn't transposed (as it should be) in the guess.

So . . . . where were we? :eek:

The other Tolkien-related plague victim I remember was Lalaith/Urwen.

[The Saucepan Man]

Turambar - you have mentioned the correct answer. Now all you have to do is work out which one it is and give me the reasoning ... :p ;)

[Turambar]

URWEN – Ur is the old city, and wen is “novel” backwards.

Good one.

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks. That's the one. :)

[Turambar]

Marring of shoe revealed a fearless man.

[Morsul the Dark]

Well Marrid means to disfigure so i take that as changing shoe into a synonym which then becomes loafer which is a synonym for strider

Strider?

[Turambar]

Not Strider, but you're sort of on the right track. A more obscure synonym is needed.

[Morsul the Dark]

more obscuer would be the synamatic phrase

"marring of shoe"
to
"give the shoes off his feet"(granted not used often but as i recall its used for those with gambling problems)

coincidentley gamling is a fearless commander in the battle of the hornberg

[Turambar]

Ah, now you're on the wrong track. :(

[Morsul the Dark]

or disfifiguring of shoe(which could work in two ways) shoe becomes horse and if you disfure a shoe it could be reffering to the shape of a horseshoe which leads to a horse and a horse that is also a fearless man is of course Brgo

Brego

[Turambar]

It's not that complicated. There's a word that means a certain type of large shoe - scramble that and you have a fearless man who aided Aragorn in the WotR.

[Diamond18]

Halbarad.

How to scramble that into a shoe, I don't know, but it's the best I can think of.

[Turambar]

Close enough. ;)

It was Angbor - a n anagram of brogan.

Take it away, Diamond18.

[Diamond18]

Ask me how to snag an elven flower and I'll teach you how to shovel an orc.

[Mithalwen]

Snaga? " Snag an elven " Snaga was an orc...

[Diamond18]

That is correct but I'm looking for two answers to the clue.

[Mithalwen]

Is flower a river in this context?

[Diamond18]

No

[Diamond18]

It's Snaga and Elanor.

Ask me how to snag an elven flower and I'll teach you how to shovel an orc.

Mith, you can go next.

[Mithalwen]

That was stupid of me ... I was thinking Elanor as an elven flower and despite having seen snanga didn't notice !!!

No good follows an imperfectly broken heart. Replace with a broken spanner?

[Diamond18]

I'm quite stumped. A little hint, please? *looks sweet and helpless*

[Mithalwen]

Ooh I thought noone was trying... ok well if a flower can be a river in cross words ( ie something that flows) then a spanner might be ....? And it would have been kinder for me to write re. place with a broken spanner

[Diamond18]

Ah, now I get the river=flower connection (was confused about that before!) but I don't have an answer yet. This is really quite tricky.... Must give it some thought.

[Diamond18]

Well, on second thought, I'll throw out an off the cuff guess just to get it out of the way:

The Bridge of Khazad Dum? It's a bridge, ie something that spans, and as I recall, it was broken. Not sure how to reconcile it with the first part.

Anyway, I wanted to rule that out before thinking about it any further.

[Mithalwen]

A spanner is a bridge but remember the clue is "re place with broken spanner" Ie it is the place with the broken bridge not the bridge itself. Not Kahazad dum but not so far geographically. Now see if you can get the place name from the first part of the clue :D

[The Saucepan Man]

Aha!

Imperfectly broken heart = an anagram of heart, but missing one letter = Thar
No good = bad

There was a broken bridge at Tharbad.

[Mithalwen]

Exactly.

I will have to see if I can work butter into a clue sometime :D

[The Saucepan Man]

Cheers, Mith. :)

Next up:

Maritime HQ found at end of paradise island, replacing capital of pirates' cove.

[Orome]

so i think i have worked out part of it. would the maritime HQ be Lighthouse?

[The Saucepan Man]

would the maritime HQ be Lighthouse?'Fraid not.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It must be the Eämbar

[The Saucepan Man]

It must be the EämbarAnswers not accepted without explanation ... :p ;)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I hoped I could sneek around that. . .

I am not sure I will get this right.

The maritime HQ is the Eämbar, because it was build by Aldarion who used it as house and command center, it also served as meeting place for the guild of ventures.

Paradise Island must then be Tol Unien where it was normaly moored.

what cannot find out is if capital of pirates cove is supposed to be. It must either be Armenelos or Rómenna. But Armenelos is not at a cove (unless cove has another meaning that I do not know of) and Rómenna is not a capital.

I guess this means I wont get the thread, but I still think I did a pretty good job.

[The Saucepan Man]

I guess this means I wont get the thread, but I still think I did a pretty good job.Nah, I'm not that cruel. You got the answer right and made a good effort to explain it, so the thread is yours.

The full explanation:

Paradise island = Tol Eresseä
Pirates' cove = Umbar

The end of the first (eä) replaces the capital of the second to produce the maritime HQ which is, as you have correctly stated, Eämbar.

Take it away, Rune. :)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Nah, I'm not that cruel. You got the answer right and made a good effort to explain it, so the thread is yours.

The full explanation:

Paradise island = Tol Eresseä
Pirates' cove = Umbar

The end of the first (eä) replaces the capital of the second to produce the maritime HQ which is, as you have correctly stated, Eämbar.

Take it away, Rune. :)

It is funny, when I first saw the clues, I thought about Umbar and Tol Eresseä was in my consideration at one point. However I abandoned both rather quickly because it did not make any sence.

Ayways I will be back later today with some new clues.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Sorry that I forgot about this thread, I realy am!

Would somebody else care to take over for me as I am going away for a week, from Saturday morning ?

[Morsul the Dark]

Agent almost was Bleached Black

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Is Agent = Elrond ?

[Gil-Galad]

agent makes me think of Thorongil, A.K.A. Aragorn

[Morsul the Dark]

nope...it is a person however

[Morsul the Dark]

Rephrasing the clue

Former Agent Was Almost This Washed out Black Dude, Metal Head was instead

its way too easy now

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It looks as though this could be Head of the White Council, but it relies on some contorted reasoning.

Washed-out black is grey, which implies either Gandalf or Thingol Grey-cloak. If we assume this means Gandalf, metal-head would be Saruman, whom Treebeard describes as having a mind of metal and wheels. The only position nearly occupied by Gandalf but eventually taken by Saruman is head of the White Council. One could say 'White wizard', although Gandalf does eventually become this. The problem seems to be that this isn't a person either, and 'this washed-out black dude' seems to suggest that the answer is Gandalf, or somebody else associated with grey. None of this really addresses 'former agent', which in a conventional cryptic clue would be 'ex spy' or 'ex rep'. All of which is but to say 'search me'.

[Morsul the Dark]

vry close in a roundabout way

clu time

former agent
and metal head refer t roles played by actors

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

So it is Gandalf. I'd guess that 'former agent' is 'ex man' or 'X-Man', and Metal Head is Professor X, played by Patrick Stewart. Of course Gandalf and Dynamo were played by the same actor: Sir Ian McKellan. As for nearly being an agent, I don't know enough about the X-Men universe or remember enough about the films to hazard a guess.

[Morsul the Dark]

corrct now i will reveal the clue as it should be read

former agent: Sean Connery was 007
Metal Head: Magneto, ian mckellen

Connery was almost cast as gandalf

squattr you're up

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Now, I could follow that method and invent a clue by free association, but that would never be solved. Instead, here's something that follows crossword rules. Sorry it's so easy, ladies and gents, but it's been a while.

Metal-toothed yodel finds lost musician.

[Morsul the Dark]

well...

metal-tothed might equal silver tounge
yodel-singer
lost musician- pendant(somehow

TOM BOMBADIL?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'd never equate 'tooth' and 'tongue', since they mean different things; Tom Bombadil doesn't yodel and there's no connection between 'musician' and 'pendant' (or 'brooch') in my dictionary.

[Gil-Galad]

Fingon perhaps? after he found Maedhros, and we all know elves love to sing once and awhile

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It's not Fingon. As a bonus, it's not Maedhros either. In fact this one's a little more obscure.

[Celuien]

Daeron?

A lost musician who created the Cirith runes. This site (http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/SILM/SILM_CE.html) says that Cirith is derived from a root meaning 'to cut' which might fit with metal tooth. But I can't figure out how to make the yodel fit.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I didn't know the derivation of cirith, so no. That is rather obscure, though; congratulations.

[Morsul the Dark]

ok....well i've got a good one
(at least for me) there is no movie trivia so dont worry ;)

Homey, after a series of battlees, this makes for one nasty ride

[Morsul the Dark]

bump""""""""

[Gil-Galad]

hint perhaps then?


i'm thinking Gimli and Legolas, mainly because of the friendship that emrged between the two after thier travels with the fellowship

[Morsul the Dark]

ok a belated hint then
Homey is a synonym for a bit of slang

the straight clue is "nasty ride"

[Morsul the Dark]

homey is slang also known as dawg or "G"

G, after a series of battles, or a WAR
so G, after WAR makes a Nasty ride

WARGS are pretty nasty aren't they? and Goblins ride them

WARG, A nasty ride

Warg whose next...:mad: I thought it was Straight Forward

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

We could always try my last one again.

Metal-toothed yodel finds lost musician.

[Mithalwen]

If it is obscure it won't be Maglor who is perhaps the most famous lost muso and also I can't work him into the clue per standard crossword conventions ...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That is very true, and it isn't Maglor. When I said 'obscure' I meant ridiculously so.

[Gil-Galad]

We could always try my last one again.

Metal-toothed yodel finds lost musician.

Something makes me want to Say Beren... since he was regarded a 'yodel' to the elves of Doriath

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Something makes me want to Say Beren... since he was regarded a 'yodel' to the elves of Doriath

I think that would be 'yokel', although Túrin suffered more with his image in that regard. The clue here is pretty straightforward as cryptic clues go; it's the answer that's obscure.

[Morsul the Dark]

Metal toothed yodel

Orthanc- Iron Fang- Filled with sound of machines and wheels- metal toothed yodel

awakens they music of fangorn the war song the ents sing?

[Annunfuiniel]

Dear :smokin:, a hint, perhaps? :)

[Morsul the Dark]

or just telling me im wrong works too, and a hint....

[The Saucepan Man]

Ha! By jove, I believe that I have it.

Metal toothed = Tin Fang
Yodel = Warble

The whole = Tinfang Warble, an extremely obscure character, seemingly a Faerie piper of some kind, whom I only discovered by shamelessly trawling for metals in the index to the Book of Lost Tales ...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I really am rubbish at keeping track of threads. You have the right of it, Saucepan.

[Galadriel55]

I came upon this thread a couple months ago. Since then I read the entire thread and partially solved Saucy's crossword. And I feel like reviving this thread because I discovered cryptics are lots of fun. And also because perhaps this will push Saucy out of his long absence...



Ride muddled way

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You may not get Saucepan back, but this thread will always call me out of retirement.

I think the answer you're looking for is Arod, the horse given to Legolas by Éomer, whose name is an anagram of road.

[Galadriel55]

Percisely! :D

Though we might not bring Sauce back, at least we might keep the Quiz forum alive - what do you think? ;)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That sounds like a bit of a tall order for two people. I'll settle for this thread.

Let's see how you get on with this one.

Chieftain leads five-hundred down South

[Galadriel55]

KHAND

Khan is a title for what you might call a chieftain, and 500 in Roman numerals is D. Together it makes up a land that is southeast of Mordor.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The very place. I'll have to start making these more difficult. :smokin:

[Galadriel55]

Girl comes after everyone returns, and also known as a big tragedy

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The tragedy is the Akallabêth, which is all and A.K.A returning, followed by a girl called Bêth.

[Galadriel55]

The thread is yours, Squatter!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Right you are.

French wine has girl confused about article in seaside town.

[Mithalwen]

Vinyamar? Located of seaside. Vin is wine in french and the rest is made of an anagram of Mary with another a which is an article.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

That is good Mith!

Makes me all ashamed of my attempt to connect Nimrodel and Edhellond with the Loire Valley.

[Mithalwen]

I don't want to preempt Squatter but assuming I am right (and I usually do!) it follows the conventions of British crosswords so I am at advantage. Any comfort if I say I spent sometime trying to get a girls name fron YLONDE before I remembered Vinyamar?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It is indeed Vinyamar, and for the reason stated. It's good to see so much activity in here for a change. Over to you, Mithalwen.

[Mithalwen]

This won't be different enough to make much of a challenge but I am off out in about five minutes so regard it as a reinforcement exercise!

A doctor absorbs one article and a more definite French one follows one of the faithful.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Amandil is the faithful Númenorean. A M.D. absorbs an followed by the French article il.

[Mithalwen]

Exactly. No danger of the momentum being lost there... ball back in your court O newly criminalised occupant of Amon Rudh....:cool:

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Hopefully this one will get you thinking.

In some quarters it's a cheap rock

[Mithalwen]

Hopefully this one will get you thinking.

In some quarters it's a cheap rock

Three farthing stone?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Yes. That was very quick.

[Mithalwen]

Flash of inspiration... and it was a good clue. Hmm try this:

Scion of a noble house, sacred flower sprang up but lost direction.

[Galadriel55]

After despairing to do this with only my memory, and systematically going through the list of rivers on the Encyclopedia of Arda, I finally found one that might make sense.

Flower=river=Ninglor, an Elvish name for the Gladden River

Lost direction=take off N

Ninglor - N = Inglor



Inglor is the name of Gildor's father. In earlier writings that was the name of Finrod, but even ignoring that and looking at just LOTR, Gildor seems to be some important fellow among his bunch, which would suggest that his father was too. And they are both of the House of Finrod, which is quite a noble house indeed...

Where sacred comes in, though, no clue have I.

[Mithalwen]

Can't fault the logic and full marks for ingenuity but it isn't Inglor. the first bit is the "straight" clue. If it helps the river isn't in Middle Earth and sacred relates to it. the rest of the clue will give you the rest of the name.

[Mithalwen]

I thought this was easy ... :confused:

[Galadriel55]

I thought this was easy ... :confused:

Apparently not...

Don't think I've abandoned this thread. I've been thinking about it a lot, and I can't really make the river fit with the rest of the clue. I'm still working on it. :)

[Mithalwen]

Sprang up but lost direction could be replacedby bloomer loses direction if it helps...

[Galadriel55]

Oy... Rivers, bloomers, physics homework one on top of the other... My head is amess. :p

Is it Mallor?

Mallos - S (south) + R (river)?

I don't know. I have to think some more.

[Mithalwen]

Only the solution is a middle earth thing. Remember that the alternate clues give the same answer. I thiny you may be trying too hard since I don't know who Mallor is (bad Tolkienista).

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The second part of the clue is rose - e. So we have the scion of a noble house whose name ends in ros. There are three possible answers and I can't work out how to achieve any of them from 'sacred flower'. I think it's Maedhros, but the only reference I can find to maedh being sacred is in the name of St Maedhog, Bishop of Ferns.

[Mithalwen]

Yes it is -ros but not that one and the first bit is really straightforward. At least to me...

and seemingly there are even more things I don't now about than I ever imagined... Bishop of Ferns..who'd a thunk it?

[Galadriel55]

Ah. As usual, I have been looking for precisely the wrong things in exactly the wrong places.

I'm fairly certain I know the -ros guy, but I won't steal it from Squatter who has really done all the work.

I thiny you may be trying too hard since I don't know who Mallor is (bad Tolkienista).

I had no clue who he was either. I was guessing-and-checking various letter combinations that could be formed from ME flowers, and I got that. Apparently he's a king of Arthedain.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Elros seems like the most likely candidate then, but that answer makes no sense.

[Mithalwen]

I can't see why. It isn't. Had been Elros I would have had something about the Spanish in there... Galadriel you have done your share too...

[Mithalwen]

Will one of you please put this poor clue and its writer out of its misery?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Is it Saeros? I'm running out of scions here.

[Mithalwen]

Knickers on head pencils up nose *wibble*

[Mithalwen]

If I say sacred flower of verse does it help?

[Galadriel55]

Things that just fit by dumb hammering down (with the blows mostly landing on fingers):

Poros - Po is a river=flower in Italy, or could be a pun on Poe.

...Which is my best - and only - guess so far.

Things that might fit with some craftier and more diligent hammering:

Cair Andros
Celebros
Rauros
Aros
Ladros


There are no more "-ros"es, scions or no. I'm totally lost.


Aros makes very little sense cryptic-wise, so I think I can eliminate that one. Ladros and Celebros don't seem impossible to hammer to the right shape. Rauros and Cair Andros are a bit oddly-shaped if you take the -ros away.

Nothing makes sense straight-clue-wise.

I promise to think more about it this evening. :Merisu:


EDIT: I just found out that there is a Rau River in Tanzania. So Rauros also fits with the same logic as Poros, but both look equally ridiculous from the straight clue perspective.

EDIT2: I was thinking before that it's Elros because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity))meaning of "el". I thought it somehow refers to "sacred". Well, I was wrong.

[Mithalwen]

No. None of those. It is a person. The sacred river is mainly literary as indicated by the "of verse" that I added. BUT not aME river as previously established. It does come from what I fondly but clearly wrongly imagined was one of the most famous poems in the English language (it is a "standard clue" which I borrowed being lazy!!!).

The person only appears in HoME maybe UT though the house and person of which he is a scion is rather better known. No hammeering is required.

[Galadriel55]

Would the answer then be Alphros? I don't remember ever encountering that name in my readings, but looking up river poetry lead me to a sacred river Alph...

[Mithalwen]

Hurrah. Alphros, 24th Prince of Dol Amroth and grandson of Imrahil.

wanders off muttering about the man from Porlock and what they clearly aren't teaching in schools anymore....

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I considered Alph but hadn't heard of Alphros. There's nothing wrong with my Coleridge; it's my HME that's rusty.

[Mithalwen]

And drunk the milk of Paradise.

Well that is reassuring... ;)

Just shows that obscure and obvious is a very individual thing....

[Galadriel55]

In my school they barely teach poetry. And most of the poems we are taught sound like "Red. Cake. Book cover. Glue stick. Headache. Elephant." and we are supposed to decipher "the author's message". :( Perhaps I am just under the wrong education system on the wrong side of the Great Pool.

I am glad to have learned of the Kubla Khan poem, though. I think I might even try to convince my teacher to assign it instead of another gibberish one.


Anyways, I think your clue was a good one, and it was certainly interesting to solve. Squatter and I dug up things we would probably never have encountered otherwise! :D This is certainly one of the more educating quizzes around...

So enough ranting, and for my clue:


Fortress of metal messed up before second person takes position of note in aged man

[Galadriel55]

I thought this one would take up a few hours max... :confused: Should I give a hint?

[Mithalwen]

I am not ignoring it..just don't have anything I am confident of trying yet..

[Galadriel55]

Don't go looking for a man. That's not the straight road......erm, clue. :D




(For clarity's sake: Aman and the straight road are just jokes, not hints. But the answer is not a man.)

[Galadriel55]

Still no luck?

Fortress is the straight clue. Fortress, fastness, stronghold, what have you.

Before separates the two parts that the clue is made up of. When you solve them and put them together you'll get the answer.

Aged man is not a reference to a specific person/character. Find a synonym for it.

[Mithalwen]

Ok right well that helps.... I had got fortress of metal in my head as a straight clue which led me to think of Angband and Thangorodrim which didn't work at all.... so looking for a metallic anagram toonpresuambly with messed up...


Gondolin doesn't work that I can see save having gold in it.. seems I need to mug up my fortresses..

[Galadriel55]

You're right, Gondolin doesn't work. But it's partially on the right track...

[Mithalwen]

Dol Guldur? Gold anagram. The old man is an elder and if you sub in U (you 2nd person) for E (a note) you get uldur?

[Galadriel55]

Dol Guldur? Gold anagram. The old man is an elder and if you sub in U (you 2nd person) for E (a note) you get uldur?

That is completely...





....






...






....







...





...Correct!!! :D Dol Guldur is the place. Ask us!

[Mithalwen]

Well I needed the spoonfeeding there this should be easy..though my judgement on such matters is off!!

Restorer in France upsets a tray after French wine.

[Galadriel55]

En=in, in French
vin=wine, in French
yatar=a scramble of a tray

The whole being Envinyatar, which means "Renewer".

[Mithalwen]

Exactement ma petite. Back to you...:D

[Galadriel55]

Merci. Essayez ma question :D :


Head and tail of twenty-six return outlandish moon before one listens to strange bloody scene

[Galadriel55]

Hello? oh... oh... oh...

Anyone here? ere... ere... ere...

*listens mournfully to the echo bouncing off the empty place*

[Mithalwen]

Azanulbizar maybe? Spooky you posting as I pondered or were you stalking?... AZ head and tail of alphabet, anul is luna (forn for Moon) reversed then bizar is homophonous with bizarre and in all the sight of a battle?

[Galadriel55]

Bingo! :D

Spooky you posting as I pondered or were you stalking?...

It was a coincidence. Chance has brought us here, if chance you call it... :)

[Mithalwen]

I was stumped for a while because at first I thought it was the AZ which was reversed so I was puzzling over the limited things beginning with ZA..:rolleyes: hmm and htat means I need to have a think... aiee

[Mithalwen]

Queen's grandson is, I hear, but a page who manned the barricade.

A bit sneaky but I think it is ok......

[Galadriel55]

Sneaky indeed. The only name I have so far is Merry - who manned the barricade that the hobbits put up and whose name sounds like Queen Mary's. But the grandson us totally off, and it's no crisp solution...

[Mithalwen]

I think you are doing quite well. Wrong but quite well. I won't give you a clue yet because you aren't way off and when you get one of the elements I think it will take you instantly to the right person. which may be a clue in itself!

[Mithalwen]

Do you need a bijou hint-ette?

[Galadriel55]

I have had precious little time last week, and whatever results my queen searches gave me did not really fit. I'll work on it. I guess a hint would speed up the process...

[Mithalwen]

I hear does not relate to the Queen's grandson, but to the sneaky middle element. Otherwise it is probably more straight forward than you think.

[Galadriel55]

Hmm... Does it somehow translate to Harry Goatleaf? :confused: I can't explain the goat no matter how much I try.

[Mithalwen]

It is . Harry is the Queen's grandson .... and page is a leaf....and surely Galadriel my sweet cub you remember about bloomers and flowers....:D

[Galadriel55]

Oh! Good.

Harry is the Queen's grandson .... and page is a leaf....and surely Galadriel my sweet cub you remember about bloomers and flowers....:D

Yeah, I had the reasons for Harry and Leaf, but I still can't explain how you get "goat" from "but a". :rolleyes: Do enlighten me please, MummieMith! :)

I'll get a clue up before I go to sleep today.

[Mithalwen]

Ohhhhhhhh welll remember how a bloomer is something that blooms ie a flower, and a flower something that flows so a river well but a sounds like butter and is something than butts....so a goat.

[Galadriel55]

Ohhhhhhhh welll remember how a bloomer is something that blooms ie a flower, and a flower something that flows so a river well but a sounds like butter and is something than butts....so a goat.

Oh I get it now!

Not only am I horrible at sounds-like guessing, but I'm also on the wrong side of the pond.

That's a nice one, Mith. A really nice one. :)



Place one in a pointless dance with deceased parent


This one should be fairly easy.

[Mithalwen]

It isn't. Stilll puzzling.

[Galadriel55]

It isn't. Stilll puzzling.

Ok, I have no idea what I wrote up there. I think I remember the answer, but then it doesn't exactly match the question. The question is missing a part. *headdesk* Or I just can't remember the answer. *facepalm* But I don't think I could have used this question for anything else, really.

Well, should have been something like

Note to place one in a pointless dance with deceased parent

[Mithalwen]

Hmm originally I thought the straight cle was place or deceased parent ~ and there are so many in ME but now I am not so sure. Dancing isn't my strongest suit but gather that when the right one is foundit has to lose N S W or E and gain an I? Hmm da capo...

[Mithalwen]

Shot in the dark, Drogo?

[Galadriel55]

Shot in the dark, Drogo?

No, not him.

Hint: the note is from the do-re-mi system.

[Mithalwen]

No, not him.

Hint: the note is from the do-re-mi system.

Ah well I never learnt solfege bot I did watch the sound of music over Christmas. ?.pondering...

[Mithalwen]

Ooooh is it Miriel? MI a name I call myseld, then a reel ia a dancr and you switch one -I- for an e forveast you get the most significant deceased parent innthe legendarium.

[Galadriel55]

Ooooh is it Miriel? MI a name I call myseld, then a reel ia a dancr and you switch one -I- for an e forveast you get the most significant deceased parent innthe legendarium.

That's the one. Just about the only remarkable thing she's done in her life is give birth to Feanor, and then caused trouble by not coming back from the dead... ;)

[Mithalwen]

She sewed nicely. Oh dear now I have to think of something.

[Mithalwen]

Dear signora arranged brittle fragment to form heartless feature.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Caradhras

Cara is roughly Italian for 'dear' and the rest is an anagram of shard, the whole being heartlessly cruel.

[Mithalwen]

Yes cara is Italian for dear when referencing a woman hence signora. So over to you Squatter.:cool:

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It's been a while, but maybe I can still remember how to do this.

Climb with firearm against fishy pitch, delivering great city

[Galadriel55]

I have no idea. Gundabad? Because it has "gun" in it and is the capital city of the goblins?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's most of the answer. Are you sure you can't have a stab at guessing how I'm getting there?

[Galadriel55]

That's most of the answer. Are you sure you can't have a stab at guessing how I'm getting there?

Mount Gundabad? Mount means climb, gun is firearm, and I still don't know the rest of it.

[Morsul the Dark]

Mount Gundabad? Mount means climb, gun is firearm, and I still don't know the rest of it.

A-Bad
A is a note
bad is fishy

[Galadriel55]

A-Bad
A is a note
bad is fishy

But what of the D? You get dabad. I tried AD and DA, as well as scrambles of the whole thing, but I didn't come up with anything that made sense.

[Morsul the Dark]

I'm wondering if there's
a specific clue about the D.

climb: Mount
Fire Arm: Gun
Fishy Pitch: Abad
great city: goblin city

I think the d sort of falls into place with the context of the rest
Great work on this one G55 :) I only guessed at the reasoning for the end bit so I hope it's right because Your answer makes sense with it.

Edit: Actually Fire Arm against fishy pitch fired upon; like Gunned? phoneticaly gund?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Fishy pitch is dab ad - a type of fish and a sales pitch. I was thinking of changing it to "fishy notice", but that would probably not have helped much. Anyway, all such mucking about aside, Galadriel has the floor.

[Galadriel55]

Thanks, Squatter. Hopefully this one isn't too muddled.


Green land exiled lady in papers after messed up signal

[Ardent]

...

Green land exiled lady in papers after messed up signal

Here's my guess:

Dell = a green land
A messed up signal = a code?
There was a code machine called the Enigma, and Elgar wrote the Enigma Variations. There is no apparent link between the machine and the composer but one of the Variations was called Nimrod.

So could the exiled lady be Nimrodel?

Even if right it still leaves me wondering about "in papers"...

[Galadriel55]

So could the exiled lady be Nimrodel?

No, not her.

The straight clue is either at the beginning or at the end. And what you said about the code is waaaaaaay too complicated and obscure. It's far simpler than that.

[Mithalwen]

Messed up probably indicates an anagram and I suspect grren land is the s traight clue. But I keep thinking of Ossiriand which doesn't work...hmmm ponders

[Mithalwen]

Tol Morwen? Not convinced but the papers bit is hard and there is almost a n anagram of news in there.

[Ardent]

Green land exiled lady in papers after messed up signal
Tol Morwen? Not convinced but the papers bit is hard and there is almost a n anagram of news in there.

I thought signal could be an anagram of lingas, as in Eorlingas. Eowyn was kind of exiled when she became the Lady of Ithilien, but again the papers bit doesn't fit.


Green land could be a garden, and Elanor Gardener (an almost anagram) was kind of exiled to Undertowers after the palantir of the Havens and the last of the Fellowship sailed West. She inherited the Book of Westmarch from Sam which could account for the papers, but it seems a stretch to interpret the palantir as a "messed up signal". Perhaps it was in the sense that it looked to the West, providing communication with a land now lost.

[Galadriel55]

Should I tell you or should I not? I think I should.

I keep thinking of Ossiriand which doesn't work...

But it does. :smokin: Can you now just give the reason? :Merisu:

[Mithalwen]

Ah well I suppose Rian could be an exiled lady, in ID ie papers in the sense of documents (as I told lovely Heren Istarion once the motto of the French republuc is Liberte Egality Vos Papiers ) and the signal is SOS rearranged into Oss... bravo.

[Galadriel55]

Ah well I suppose Rian could be an exiled lady, in ID ie papers in the sense of documents (as I told lovely Heren Istarion once the motto of the French republuc is Liberte Egality Vos Papiers ) and the signal is SOS rearranged into Oss... bravo.

That's right on. The thread is yours. :)

[Mithalwen]

So much easier when you know the answer.

Lets try...

Kick up a fuss but take direction to find a range.

[Pervinca Took]

So much easier when you know the answer.

Lets try...

Kick up a fuss but take direction to find a range.

I can't find a mountain range in any Middle-earth language that works.

It can't possibly be something to do with ARAGORN, can it? As in Ranger, not range? "Rag" is something you lose if you're cross/kicking up a fuss, N is a direction, all letters of range except E are in his name?

(No, didn't think so). :embarrassed:

[Galadriel55]

Pervinca, you've given me an idea. It could be drama + N, kicked up=mixedd up, to give ANDRAM, a relatively insignificant mountain range in mid-Beleriand.

[Mithalwen]

Yep, that is it...fraid I lacked inspiration so browsed encyclopedia of arda for somethingforgot it was so obscure, haven't read much first age stuff for a while...

Hi Pervinca, good to have new blood.

[Pervinca Took]

Hi Mithalwen - I love cryptic crosswords, so this is right up my street.

Can't wait for the next clue, Galadriel!

[Mithalwen]

Great, I enjoy them too but with sovfew the turns can come a little quickly!

[Galadriel55]

Yep, that is it...fraid I lacked inspiration so browsed encyclopedia of arda for somethingforgot it was so obscure, haven't read much first age stuff for a while...

It's not that it's insignificant in terms of it's size or location, just nothing really happens there. Like the Pelori Mountains. And I also go to Enc. of Arda half the time and click "random entry" until something useful shows up. :)


Frodo, call grizzly with hesitative sound.

[Mithalwen]

RINGBEARER? Ring for call grizxly bear and er for hesitation.

[Pervinca Took]

I had internet connectivity issues yesterday. :( But fun to see a new clue, even when it's already solved. :)

[Mithalwen]

Oh bother, I held back a while in case you wanted a shot...

[Galadriel55]

RINGBEARER? Ring for call grizxly bear and er for hesitation.

Right on!

[Mithalwen]

Cheers...

Hearing organ, Irish singer ends a new day in Numenor.

[Pervinca Took]

Cheers...

Hearing organ, Irish singer ends a new day in Numenor.

Ear + Enya gives:

Eärenya: The Sea-day of the Númenóreans

[Mithalwen]

Indeed which made the week up to seven days...


Over to you, Pervinca:D

[Pervinca Took]

Place of breaking turmoil where an eyeless couple, we hear, begin an article on an ancient physician.

[Mithalwen]

Hmm intriguing, something is floating in the back of mymind. But need to ponder..

[Mithalwen]

I can't quite explain it all but I did history of medicine at school and there was a chap called Galen...which offersa couple of possibilities of which Parth Galen where the fellowship broke seems likeliest. Pair is a couple without I par..th starts the an article..the we hear I can't explain...

Works better than trying to turn hippocrates into helcaraxe which was my starting point!

[Pervinca Took]

Well done, you are quite right. I put in "we hear" because it referred to "i" which only sounds like "eye" instead of meaning the same thing or the word "eye" being an actual part of the answer. In a lot of crosswords I've done, "we hear" in the clue indicated that the element "sounded like that" but was spelled differently.

I first heard of Galen in "Medicine Through Time" - one of the units on a new "O" Level History course back in the 80's. ;)

I had thought of just putting "place of turmoil" because I thought "breaking" was a bit of a giveaway. ;) But I think a lot of the fun is in fitting every bit of the clue to the answer.

[Mithalwen]

silly me, yes of course it does. Sounds like we did the same syllabus. I enjoyed it though I remember that the answe r to most things was purging, bloodletting and vomiting.

[Pervinca Took]

Not to mention the trephinned skulls! And a charming picture of an Egyptian lady vomiting at a banquet. It was a very content-heavy course. We had three very full text books to get through in one term. I loved the course, though. Other courses were the Irish Question, Country Houses and Elizabethan England.

[Mithalwen]

Inevitably I had to do the industrial revolution again along with communist chinacand a local study. Despite going fromone local school to another I seem to have done little else but the ir...apart from the year we had a devout yorkist.

[Mithalwen]

Lord whose end, in France, is also his beginning. Interim target loses pitch.

[Galadriel55]

Fingolfin? Fin being French for end, and gol as goal-a.

[Mithalwen]

Indeed, it is all yours. Thought I woud be less obscure and maybe overdidvit!

[Galadriel55]

Indeed, it is all yours. Thought I woud be less obscure and maybe overdidvit!

I could only just think of two people who have names that both begin and end on "fin"... That helped a lot.

Ok, here's one:


Tower without one leader in Shire in goblin

[Pervinca Took]

Orthanc.

Orthanc is the tower; thain (Shire leader) minus 1 (I) inside the word orc (goblin).

[Galadriel55]

Precisely. Over to you.

[Pervinca Took]

Quite tuneful before the loss of the Ulster connection, this palindromic meanie wears a hat dead-centre.

[Morsul the Dark]

Quite tuneful before the loss of the Ulster connection, this palindromic meanie wears a hat dead-centre.

Palindrom that;s same forward and back that's te only thing in that clue that gives me remotely anything.

[Mithalwen]

With a bit of reverse engineering I think Mim is the answer to this initially daunting clue. I Eeeked when I first saw it! Thanks to Nerwen's favourite spambot we know that very few Tolkien names begin and end with the same letter let alone being a palindrome. Then wearing a hat suggests a circonflex on the middle letter. Ulster connection suggested NI for northern Ireland. Wrapping Mim around NI gives the musical term mimim.

[Pervinca Took]

Exactly! I thought it would have been too much of a giveaway if I'd only included the last part of the clue. I'd already indicated that the answer was a villain, and I can't think offhand of any palindromes besides Mim in Tolkien's universe (plus the hat indicates the circumflex, as you rightly said).

Minim is a palindrome too, of course.

Well done Mithalwen - over to you!

[Morsul the Dark]

Fantastic job that clue was waaay smarter than me :rolleyes:

[Galadriel55]

I can't think offhand of any palindromes besides Mim in Tolkien's universe

Bob. But I think that's it.

Anyways, great job Mith! That clue was certainly daunting, but you solved all the parts! Even with the help of dear old Lucy (who is just getting way too popular for a spambot :D).

[Mithalwen]

I think there is truth I Gandalf's observation that shared origins are a help when it comes to solving riddles...more likely to get the cultural refs and knoww the same clue conventions.

But this isn't going to be so clever I fear.

Star doesn't get a thank you initially but gains land in dissarray for an epesse.

[Pervinca Took]

It looks darned clever to me! I tried to make my clues hard because the standard I found here was so high. (I was completely at sea on the Ossiriand and Amdran (is that right?) clues).

I also have a Daily Mail book of cryptic crosswords by my bed that I am gradually getting better at - but I still have to look up the answers in the back quite a lot!

I think there is truth I Gandalf's observation that shared origins are a help when it comes to solving riddles...more likely to get the cultural refs and knoww the same clue conventions.

I wonder if that was why I didn't get the "letters" thing in Galadriel's Ossiriand - or is that more to do with being used within a particular profession?

P.S. No, I can't solve this clue. Not yet, anyway. ;)

P.P.S. Sam would probably throw apples at me for forgetting Bob.

[Mithalwen]

I only got it because I worked backwards...and actually that might be the best way of tackling this one.

[Morsul the Dark]

Star doesn't get a thank you initially but gains land in dissarray for an epesse.

Well Epesse is a nickname... sort of...

Now Gandalf has lots of those and is almost an anagram for Gains Land(gains land in disarray)

But he doesn't really fit the clue otherwise.

[Mithalwen]

Not Gandalf. But you are correct that epesse is the straight clue. Disarray is indicating an anagram but..

[Pervinca Took]

I think the "thank you" element is either "ta" or "Tar" (conversational word for "thank you"). That's as far as I got last night - this part of the clue was the one that at first had me the most bewildered! (and I may still be wrong, of course).

Also, I didn't know what an epesse was and had to look it up - so I learned something new as well! (Thanks Mith). :)

I reckoned it might be one of the Numerorean kings/queens with the "Tar" prefix left off. But I didn't have time to look through them all last night. (I guessed it was another "work backwards" clue - that like with minim/Mim you had to remove some letters to get to the answer, rather than add them).

I even tried removing "ta" from the word "star" - and mingling it with "land" or "land in" in disarray (jumbled up). And I nearly, but not quite, got Sirandilas - now, I don't know if that's even a Tolkienian name. I just remember someone once using it as a user name on a Tolkien discussion board.

Nerdanel has "land" in it, but also has several other letters that don't fit. Ditto Thranduil.

So I reckon it might be the name of a country, jumbled up, plus maybe s and r. Hmmmmm ....

I wasn't including "gains" in the anagram, because I thought it just indicated to add land or land in (jumbled up) to sr (star minus ta) ....

Or it could start with EL for star - but that still wouldn't take care of the "thank you" absence thing. ;)

[Mithalwen]

Lots ofvthought but wrong conclusions other than you do add land jumbled up to the first part of the answer. Yes doesn't get means loses in this context but there is word in the clue you have ignored which is vital. Star is part of the clue not part of the answer so anagrams won't help there.

[Pervinca Took]

I didn't ignore "initially," but couldn't find where to use it. Thought I was removing -ta from star, so keeping the initial seemed redundant as I was doing so anyway.

Ah well - as JRRT once said, I am "dead stuck." ;)

[Mithalwen]

i would follow the earlier advice to start at the end of the clue. the star business will fall into place . the answer is not obscure. you dont need to have read HoME

[Pervinca Took]

There's Anduril, of course, (previously called Narsil), but I don't know if the term epesse is used of swords - and I can't account for the "uri" element. ;)

I don't know if it can be used of eagles either. ;) But in any case Landroval (even if that was a nickname) doesn't have the word "land" in disarray - quite the opposite.

I would take that advice - I just don't know that many epesses. ;)

EDIT:

I wonder if AMANDIL might work - because there was also a Tar-Amandil, so Tar could be left off. And there is land jumbled up, but I don't know what to do with the "ami" letters.

[Galadriel55]

There's Anduril, of course, (previously called Narsil), but I don't know if the term epesse is used of swords - and I can't account for the "uri" element. ;)

Star=Tauri
Tauri-ta=uri
uri+land=Anduril


Methinks you have it. :)

[Pervinca Took]

I was just trying to make Felagund work, because that's definitely an epesse!

If Anduril is right, Galadriel got it really, not me. ;)

RE: Are there any Tolkien palindromes beside Mim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55
Bob. But I think that's it.

We forgot ODO!

[Galadriel55]

If Anduril is right, Galadriel got it really, not me. ;)

No, you got it. I was just working backwards from your answer. :)

[Mithalwen]

Neither of you have it. I thought I indicated than thank you was not ta or tar. The clue is not that tricksy and I feel it follows the conventions. I understand epesse to be a secondary name of a personand that is what you are looking for. Further more it is known as a secondary name. It isnt Felagund but it is on a par. I havent been mean and used someone like Gilgalad or Galadriel who are best known by the epesse to the extent that the original name is forgotten.

The cryptic clue is in two distinct parts which simply have to be added together.

[Pervinca Took]

Celebrindal?

Contains "land" and "ele" (star). Not sure about "thank you," unless it is celebrate minus rate - if you rate someone you appreciate them (as you do if you celebrate them).

[Mithalwen]

Hurray. It is Celebrindal but you aren' t right on the reasoning quite.

Star was celebrity which lost the initial letters of thank you, t and y to leave celebri.

Land of course turns into ndal.

[Pervinca Took]

Very clever. I suppose the brilliance of Tolkien's starry universe can blind one to more tawdry things like celebrity. :o

Here we go, then:

Red hip mutates in the woods, although surrounded by nothing.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, the pedant in me feels that celebrity like personality is something one may have rather than be..ans in retrospect I realised that it may have been harder for those who, pronounce elvish correctly ...and while I know it is keleb I still mentally read seleb a lot of the time...

[Morsul the Dark]

Very clever. I suppose the brilliance of Tolkien's starry universe can blind one to more tawdry things like celebrity. :o

Here we go, then:

Red hip mutates in the woods, although surrounded by nothing.

What in the.....

I'm having flashback to Saucepanman...

Mutates could indicate an anagram...
I wonder if "Although surrounded by nothing" could be the straight clue working from that it could be an island or the void... something to that effect...

[Mithalwen]

I wish he would come back. I hope I won't be the one to pass his post count.

[Pervinca Took]

What in the.....

I'm having flashback to Saucepanman...

Mutates could indicate an anagram...
I wonder if "Although surrounded by nothing" could be the straight clue working from that it could be an island or the void... something to that effect...

1. You're right about "mutates."
2. "Surrounded by nothing" isn't the straight clue.

Yes, the pedant in me feels that celebrity like personality is something one may have rather than be..ans in retrospect I realised that it may have been harder for those who, pronounce elvish correctly ...and while I know it is keleb I still mentally read seleb a lot of the time...

It wasn't that. It just didn't occur to me that it might be a name used together with the original name. Names like Turambar, Serinde, Celebrindal and Felagund I kind of think of almost as non-hereditary surnames, although of course they're not. I was looking for a name you only ever see on its own - like Galadriel, who is never called Nerwen Galadriel.

And I meant that stars of the twinkling in the sky variety feature so much in Tolkien - linguistically, literally, in heraldry, in terms of there being names for individual ones, etc - that I went looking in all those places and it didn't occur to me to think of that particular meaning of star.

That's why I'm not very good at cryptic crosswords, even though I like them so much.

[Mithalwen]

Yes I realised that the other kind of star was more likely and nearly pointed out that it was polysemic. But since the straight clue and anagram had been identified quickly I thought with the benefit of knowing the answer!that itvwoukd come quickly. I just think I can't judge difficulty.:o

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok so... Neldorath is a possibility...

Eldor Red Ol' ....Ol' as in sly Ol' dog a "hip" guy(Stretched that one)

Nath(Could be nothing in another language I doubt it though....)

And it's a forest (In the woods)

So in conclusion I'm wrong...

[Pervinca Took]

You're right - almost - about where the straight clue is.

But - big clue - the straight clue isn't the woods themselves, but IN the woods.

(Something you might find in the woods).

[Pervinca Took]

It's something that grows, with an original name given to it by Tolkien - there are very few plants, flowers and trees that Tolkien originally invented and gave names to.

It would almost certainly be found in the woods. It grew in at least two countries with woods in them.

[Morsul the Dark]

Red hip mutates in the woods, although surrounded by nothing.

Niphredil

Red hip= iphred Nil is nothing
A winter flower

[Pervinca Took]

Correct! Over to you. :)

[Morsul the Dark]

Correct! Over to you. :)

to be fair I only got it after you mentioned plants I was going through all the ents I could find.:rolleyes:
give me an houre or so

[Pervinca Took]

"Red hip" was also a kind of hint towards it being a plant/flower - because you get hips and haws in a wood, and they're often red.

Well done anyway!

[Morsul the Dark]

Personally I think this one is prettyn easy but we'll see..

I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired

I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known

Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.

I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits

I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.

[Pervinca Took]

So - is this six separate answers - or is each clue for one letter - or is each one a separate clue and we add them all together?

Unless it's Durin (who kept being "reborn") - but I don't know why a Durin would be sweet or salty!

[Morsul the Dark]

They're seperate answers that lead to the "family" which is a bigger answer.

[Pervinca Took]

Personally I think this one is prettyn easy but we'll see..

I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired

I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known

Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.

I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits

I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.

I wondered if this might be the Gamgee family (Sam's generation), because Hamson contains "ham" which can be salty, and Marigold, May (which can mean hawthorn blossom) and Daisy are flower names (smell sweet) (even though marigolds don't have much perfume, and what there is is not that sweet). And because there was probably another Hamson born in a later generation.

There are six in this generation of the family, but the birth order does not fit the clues, and three of them are girls!

Back to the drawing board ....

Unless it's the lords of the Valar ...

Manwe (considered by many the most important), Ulmo (lord of the sea, hence salty), Aule (ease their labour? taught craft to the Noldor) ....

But even with Melkor cast out, there are one two many of them ....

[Morsul the Dark]

HUGE clue ham could be part of the answer... not Hamson just ham...

Oh and I'd also keep hobbits in mind...

[Pervinca Took]

I considered Hamfast, but Sam's father was one of four children, not six.

After your latest clue I also considered Sam Gamgee's sons, but there were seven of them, not six.

I wonder if it's something to do with the Gamgee side of Sam's Longfather tree:

Hamfast of Gamwich - Wiseman Gamwich - Hob Gammidge - Hobson Gamgee - Hamfast Gamgee - Samwise Gamgee

Samwise was the last of the Gamgees in one sense, because he later changed the family name to Gardner. And one of his sons was called Hamfast, so the eldest of the tree was then (in a sense) born again.

The sixth, Samwise, brings the family together because he unites them with the Cottons again? (As does his sister, Marigold).

But the "sweet and salty" bits don't fit.

[Morsul the Dark]

sweet and salty are the two biggest clues to what I'm looking for... I'm afraid to say much more without giving it away... Hobbits have a good deal to do with the answer but hobbits are not the answer.

[Galadriel55]

I keep returning to the thought of the Unexpected Party, especially the meal of thereof. Here is a list of foods mentioned (without repetitions):

tea
cake
beer
seed cake
ale
porter
coffee
buttered scones
red wine
raspberry jam
apple tart
mince pies
cheese
pork pie
salad
eggs
chicken
pickles
biscuit

Now thati's significantly more than seven, but what if you take, f.ex., only the drinks? Then you get tea, beer, ale, porter, coffee, wine - which is the right number. But they don't make much sense with the descriptions.

If the answer is PIES/CAKES, it makes more sense, but there are not enough of them, unless you include the tarts/scones.

[Morsul the Dark]

You guys are hovering right around the answers... G55 you almost got it just went a tad too specific...

I think the third clue/answer could break it wide open...

[Pervinca Took]

Tea makes sense, G55, because it can be sweet when desired. (I can't stand sweet tea, but some people drink it that way!) And hobbits are very English in considering tea to be important. (I myself drink gallons of the stuff!)

HANG ON!

Is it hobbit meals? Six a day?


BREAKFAST
I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired

Considered by many the most important meal of the day. Don't know if hobbits had breakfast cereal ;), but they might put jam or marmalade on their toast, or treacle on their porridge (which is a cereal, I suppose).

SECOND BREAKFAST? MID-MORNING SNACK?
I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Now - Tolkien didn't say hobbits have second breakfast - it's just that Bilbo has one after he clears up after thirteen dwarves and one wizard.

But a mid-morning snack is perhaps more likely to be savoury than sweet.

ELEVENSES? DINNER?
Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known

The problem I have here is that it's the film that mentions this, not Tolkien. Although Elevenses are mentioned in stories about the traditionally English way of life. I first came across the term in the Paddington Bear books.

Twice the one sounds more like dinner, though.

DINNER
Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.

I suppose hobbits - and people - break from work for dinner.

Hobbits have dinner twice a day when they can get it - although I don't know if they take them consecutively. ;)

TEA
I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits

Sometimes have biscuits at tea (although I'd consider them more of a supper thing).

SUPPER
I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.

The last until breakfast, the oldest brother.

[Mithalwen]

That sounds plausible but the debate about the nature of meals and their naming would open a big can of worms.. for me certainly I would be thinking of Breakfast (second breakfast ) elevenses, lunch, tea (definitely a biscuit thing and only much more on special occasions) then dinner/supper .....

[Morsul the Dark]

Tea makes sense, G55, because it can be sweet when desired. (I can't stand sweet tea, but some people drink it that way!) And hobbits are very English in considering tea to be important. (I myself drink gallons of the stuff!)

HANG ON!

Is it hobbit meals? Six a day?


BREAKFAST
I am born the earliest
Considered by many the most important
I can be sweet when desired

Considered by many the most important meal of the day. Don't know if hobbits had breakfast cereal ;), but they might put jam or marmalade on their toast, or treacle on their porridge (which is a cereal, I suppose).

SECOND BREAKFAST? MID-MORNING SNACK?
I am born Second
I am much the same as my elder brother
But I can be Salty if Desired

Now - Tolkien didn't say hobbits have second breakfast - it's just that Bilbo has one after he clears up after thirteen dwarves and one wizard.

But a mid-morning snack is perhaps more likely to be savoury than sweet.

ELEVENSES? DINNER?
Third Born am I
I am twice the one
I Am not as well known

The problem I have here is that it's the film that mentions this, not Tolkien. Although Elevenses are mentioned in stories about the traditionally English way of life. I first came across the term in the Paddington Bear books.

Twice the one sounds more like dinner, though.

DINNER
Fourth Born Am I
Many would use me to ease their labor
Yet two more brothers remain in this family.

I suppose hobbits - and people - break from work for dinner.

Hobbits have dinner twice a day when they can get it - although I don't know if they take them consecutively. ;)

TEA
I am Fifth Born
I am the smallest of my brothers
I'm known sometimes for my biscuits

Sometimes have biscuits at tea (although I'd consider them more of a supper thing).

SUPPER
I am Sixth Born
I bring the family together.
I am last until my oldest brother is born again.

The last until breakfast, the oldest brother.

Twice the one 11 elevensies...

Lunch break

Most poeple sit down as a family for supper.

Correct! Over to you my good friend.

[Pervinca Took]

I suppose the second breakfast is bacon and eggs, then. ;)

I like the "twice the one" clue - very clever. Your clue kind of mixes culinary hobbitlore, culinary filmlore and culinary real world lore!

I think it may also win an award for the longest cryptic clue ever published! More like a riddle. Very good, though.

Galadriel, it was your list of foods that triggered the answer for me, and I'm sure if you'd been online at the time you'd have got it. But anyway, here's the next cryptic clue:

Bloom with the vivacity of French gold.