Cryptic Clues

[Mithalwen]

Now thiis is one I think I can do ~ French being my specialism. Elanor? A flower with elan and french for gold being or. elan is french too..

[Pervinca Took]

Indeed, and "elan" means dash or vivacity.

Over to you.

[Mithalwen]

Yay! Past few clues suggest I either get things quickly or not at all...hmm try..

Knight met lady atop a flower by the gate!!

[Pervinca Took]

Hmmmm. There aren't all that many named knights in Tolkien's world, and none of them seem to have bits of flower name (or of the word flower) in them.

Hey! "By the gate" wasn't there before!

[Morsul the Dark]

Hmmmm. There aren't all that many named knights in Tolkien's world, and none of them seem to have bits of flower name (or of the word flower) in them.

HEY! "By the gate" wasn't there before!

I'm looking ant nams with "sir" in hem other than that stumped....

[Galadriel55]

Well, knowing Mithalwen, a flower never refers to a daisy or dandylion. So trying it the other way...

SIRANNON

Sir=knight
Ann=lady
on=atop
flower by the gate=straight clue.

[Mithalwen]

Perfect explanation Galadriel. I had left off the last bit of the clue but thought after it was too hardwith out it.

[Galadriel55]

Colour foreign lord swallowing cloth in unique specimen

[Pervinca Took]

Colour foreign lord swallowing cloth in unique specimen

Was thinking of words for lord in other languages - but I wonder if "foreign" could mean "mix up" the word lord and if it could begin Dorl (like Dor Lomin).

On the other hand what, apart from "lord," could be the straight clue, I ask myself.

I wonder if "in unique specimen" means take the letters "que" that do end some names like Alcarinque (although that's the name of a star, I think).

Colour - could be shade or hue or an actual colour, or blush, or influence, but none of them seem to fit.

The only even near synonym for swallowing I can think of is gulping! (or engulfing). Unless "cloth" gets swallowed by the other letters in the clue.

Tried "foreign" words for colour, but can't think of a lord with the letters "Farbe" in his name. ;)

[Galadriel55]

It's not as complicated as you make it out. I made this clue follow proper cryptic clue structure. That means, the straight clue is at one of the ends and there may or may not be "directional" words (eg: after, between, etc - words that tell you the order in which the answers to the clues come). And foreign here is just your basic foreign. Outlandish. French. Italian. Japanese. Rwandan. Take your pick. :)

[Pervinca Took]

That means, the straight clue is at one of the ends

Colour foreign lord swallowing cloth in unique specimen.

So it's a colour or a specimen. Or a unique specimen. :) A specimen sounds like a plant, or something that was once living.

SERAGON contains the word "rag," which kind of agrees with "cloth," and it's the only Tolkien name I can think of offhand which takes its name (in a way) from a colour - blood-red/bloodstone. "Unique" could be "one," I suppose - rag + one + s.

That said, I don't think it's right.

[Galadriel55]

You're right - seragon is not the answer. :p

You are actually very close to the answer. The only thing you're forgetting is the lord. Remember that the order for clues is colour-->lord-->swallowing cloth-->unique specimen. Don't change the order around to make colour do the swallowing. And don't limit yourself to plants. :)

[Pervinca Took]

ARAGORN means "royal tree," and is close letterwise to a wrong answer you said was close, but I'm pretty certain that's wrong as well.

Nimloth was a unique specimen, I think, and that doesn't fit at all! Well, apart from cloth minus the c being present.

Or to start with Red - the Red Arrow is a uniquish specimen. Nothing even vaguely clothlike about it, though.

[Pervinca Took]

Hang on - LAURELIN?

Laure = gold, el might mean lord, and most of the word "linen" is present? And Laurelin was certainly a unique specimen.

[Galadriel55]

Combine the reasoning you used for Red Arrow and Aragorn/Seragon, find the right lord to eat the cloth, and you'll get the answer.

And, sorry, but Laurelin is not it.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Green Dragon

Green is self-explanatory, then Don swallows a rag and as any fule kno, there's only one Dragon in Bywater and that's green.

[Pervinca Took]

Absurdly simple, like most riddles when you know the answer ....

[Mithalwen]

And yet I am sure I would never have got .:o

[Galadriel55]

Green Dragon

Green is self-explanatory, then Don swallows a rag and as any fule kno, there's only one Dragon in Bywater and that's green.

Squatter! You're back! And with a dead-on answer!

Mith and Pervinca, that's how I feel lately about most of your Password cryptic clues. They just seem to be too far for me to reach, and then you just tick them off like boxes on a survey...

[Mithalwen]

Well I am stuck now on the password. Which has not been easy so far..with me I either see things or I don't. ?. Unlike Barliman I can't see thtrough a brick wall, given time.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Squatter! You're back! And with a dead-on answer!
Well, you can thank Pervinca for collaring me at Oxonmoot and telling me you were short of players. I didn't expect this enthusiasm, though.

And yet I am sure I would never have got
You don't share my unhealthy preoccupation with public houses.

Absurdly simple, like most riddles when you know the answer
I expect it was probably too simple for a learned lore-master in these suspicious days. I didn't get it at first either.

Anyway, without further ado, here's another clue

Long tale about final destination.

Incidentally, I have a couple of ideas about the password too.

[Pervinca Took]

Squatter! You're back! And with a dead-on answer!

Mith and Pervinca, that's how I feel lately about most of your Password cryptic clues. They just seem to be too far for me to reach, and then you just tick them off like boxes on a survey...

Galadriel, I usually feel the same with your clues - I remember something about a "lady in letters" which had me completely flummoxed. And "unique specimen" for only one dragon was really clever. :impressed:

Reminds me of an Oxonmoot in the early noughties when one group entry for the masquerade was people dressed as all the pub names in LOTR. ;)

Like Mith, I am the Un-Barliman when it comes to cryptic clues (may CS Lewis forgive me for that dreadful pun).

[Galadriel55]

I'm sorry for letting this thread die, but I've just had absolutely no successful ideas. I've tried working forward, backward, taking different parts as the straight clue, but it just doesn't work. :(

[Mithalwen]

but hasnt Squatter solved it?

[Galadriel55]

but hasnt Squatter solved it?

I mean I can't solve his clue. He put a new one up a very long time ago.

[Mithalwen]

Which i never noticed..meep my bad.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

So now that you've seen it I expect you have a solution. It really isn't all that difficult.

[Pervinca Took]

I've just noticed that TOL GALEN is an anagram of LONG TALE. Was this anyone's final destination?

Edit: Having looked it up, it's the Green Isle where Beren and Luthien end their mortal days (which of course has another name meaning the Land of the Dead that Live) ... so their final destination within the Circles of the World. I knew the name well, but couldn't remember what it referred to.

I hadn't looked at this clue for ages, but I think when I first tried it I was expecting it to be an elvish name for one of the tales, as when I tried using "final destination" as the straight part of the clue I was thinking of fairly obvious final destinations like Orodruin, Tol Eressea and Erebor, and I couldn't get them by shuffling "long tale" or anything meaning "long tale."

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's the place.

[Pervinca Took]

I guess I'd better post another, then:

Exclude also audible success for a flower.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Baranduin is the flower, which we get by building up bar (exclude), and (also) and uin (audible success).

[Pervinca Took]

Indeed it is, and indeed we do. And so over to you again.

By the way, there are a couple of clues left to solve on the latest Password in the other thread. ;)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Yes, the password. I hadn't in any way decided that those clues were too hard. I'll have a look later when I'm feeling less dense.

Here's a quick clue to keep everyone going while I think about it.

Short array possibly in the south east

[Pervinca Took]

Hmmm. Can't find many places in the south-east, in any of the Three Ages.

EDIT: OK - I think I have the answer. BUT.

I was wondering if there was any program online that scrambled words or phrases upon request. There is:

http://anagram-solver.net/

and I found it that way. Therefore I'm not going to give the answer, as I'm not sure it's allowed. Could be very useful for composing cryptic clues, though!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You say that as though anagrams are difficult. It might save me a couple of minutes, though. And yes, it is cheating.

[Pervinca Took]

Some are more difficult than others. It depends how hard the straight part of the clue is!

Anyway, I only looked for the site out of curiosity, and at least I was honest about it and said I wasn't going to give the answer. It wouldn't work for most of the cryptic clues I write, actually. They're usually bits of anagram but with directions and things added to them.

[Mithalwen]

Hyarrostar, southeastern peninsular of Numenor. With grey cells only.
:Merisu:

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Your little grey cells are correct.

[Mithalwen]

So is it me or Pervinca?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It's you, you plank. Pervinca didn't give an answer because she got it by underhand means.

[Mithalwen]

Well she did point the way.. and don't be mean.

[Pervinca Took]

I was actually really surprised that any such site would have Middle-earth names in its database. I suppose it must be attached to some kind of search engine. I have not done anything underhand. I acted upon curiosity, wondering if such a thing as an anagram maker existed online - I'm actually fond of cryptic crosswords and wordplay anyway, as well as Tolkienian puzzles - and admitted I had done so. Get over it.

[Mithalwen]

Elf-ish lord confused role with Elvish lord.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Elrohir Anagram of role and Sindarin hîr

[Mithalwen]

Indeed. Over to you... :cool:

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

My head is too full of cryptic. The first thing I thought when I read that was 'uoy ot'

Uproar overwhelms regulation retreat for first to arrive

[Mithalwen]

Or you slipped to the other side of the mirror..

[Pervinca Took]

My head is too full of cryptic. The first thing I thought when I read that was 'uoy ot'

Uproar overwhelms regulation retreat for first to arrive

DWALIN!

Uproar is DIN, which overwhelms/swallows LAW in retreat (ie backwards). Dwalin was the first dwarf to arrive at the unexpected party.

Got stuck for ages using "rule" for regulation.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'm glad you persevered and you are, of course, spot on. Your turn.

[Mithalwen]

Where as I was stuck thinking of elves as first arrivals.

[Pervinca Took]

Where as I was stuck thinking of elves as first arrivals.

So was I; I think I thought of Dwalin a while ago, but couldn't find the letters for it.

Here goes, then:

Ladykiller loses a certain ambiance: a tautological carrier, he?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think this one is Lotho Sackville-Baggins

Ladykiller loses a certain ambiance: lothario - air = Lotho

a tautological carrier, he: Sackville-Baggins is a hyphenated compound of two words meaning the same thing, both bag related, hence tautological carrier.

[Pervinca Took]

Perfectly correct. Over to you.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Have a go at this one

Flight without goal might end at the top or bottom

[Pervinca Took]

Just wondering if this might be The Winding Stair.

Having first pondered whether there were elvish names for things like the Flight of the Noldor, the idea of flight referring to stairs has just occurred to me.

Could "winding" sort of mean without a goal? Stairs can end at the top or the bottom. Or even both.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Not that, I'm afraid. 'Winding' for 'without goal' is a bit of a reach.

[Pervinca Took]

OK. I was trying to remove the word "end" from a phrase in elvish I couldn't find for something like the Flight of the Noldor before I thought of stairs. So let's take a trip to Moria and try

The Endless Stair.

I suppose that kind of stair would stop at the top OR bottom, but not both.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's the case of stairs I wanted.

[Pervinca Took]

That's good, 'cos I don't know the ablative form. ;)

Try this one:

Tedious fellow mixes with humanity here.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Amon Ereb

a bore and men mixed up.

[Pervinca Took]

Good try, and on the right lines, but no.

[Pervinca Took]

Hint: My clue didn't include an article, and I usually account for every single letter (Lotho Sackville-Baggins was an exception, because the "Sackville-Baggins" was just kind of referred to, with Lotho being the main part of the clue).

You might also want to rethink the "humanity" part of the clue.

[Pervinca Took]

Please solve this! Amon Ereb was very close, but not the answer.

BORE was correct for tedious fellow (without the a that Squatter added), but rethink the 'humanity' part - what other things can be humanities? Think education ....

[Mithalwen]

Erebor?

[Pervinca Took]

Yes indeed! BORE mixed with RE (short for the Humanities subject, Religious Education).

Over to you!

[Mithalwen]

Ok try this

Starry warrior, taking direction, distorted shine above.

[Pervinca Took]

Ok try this

Starry warrior, taking direction, distorted shine above.

Hmmm - trying to get from Elendil to Earendil by taking away L and adding something shiny ... but ray backwards leaves a y I can't dispose of.

My first starting point was Orion.

[Mithalwen]

Well L is the wrong direction for starters ..... have another think

[Pervinca Took]

Suspecting EREINION for the starry warrior, but can't quite find my way there. Have tried footling about with Orion plus NE for a direction, plus part of the word shine.

[Mithalwen]

Well it is always worth trying my beloved if I have set the clues... but as it happens not Ereinion

[Pervinca Took]

Ah - and I even got one letter closer by using NEE for north-east-east plus Orion and taking 'shine above' just to be what Starlight does ... but that still only got me as far as EREINOON. ;)

[Galadriel55]

Taking "starry warrier" as the straight clue, my first thought was Orion and my second was Menelmacar. No idea how that can fit though, and I'm too tired to try and figure it our from the cryptic side.

[Mithalwen]

You need a third thought.

[Pervinca Took]

My second thought was Menelvagor (sp?) but the v and the g were too problematic.

Starry warrior, taking direction, distorted shine above.

Maybe Telumehtar - because I guess 'lume' means shine in some person and declension, and ... maybe all of the letters minus the R might mean shine or shine above in Elvish?

[Mithalwen]

It is Menelvagor and the why isn't that tricksy.

[Pervinca Took]

It is Menelvagor and the why isn't that tricksy.

Hang on, there's GLEAM in there. I spent quite a while trying to get from GLEAM to MAGLOR on this one, too. So - what letters are left?

NEVOR - oooooohhh - N(orth) plus OVER for above. I did look for overs and gleams, but clearly didn't look hard enough in Menelvagor.

[Pervinca Took]

He mingles twilight with doom, initially.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry, yes that is exactly the reasoning. I generally indicate if you need Elvish to solve the clue.

[Ivriniel]

He mingles twilight with doom, initially.

"HE" + (mingles) "doom" (Umbar), with the 'He' positioned first=Turumbar

[Pervinca Took]

Good try!

However, you are forgetting the 'twilight' element. Also, it doesn't say that 'he' mingles with doom, but that 'twilight' does. The straight part of the clue doesn't usually contribute letters to the cryptic part; in general it kind of stands apart from it, so to speak.

It kinds of betrays the hobbitlike side of me that Turambar often makes me think of Carambars - candy bars that were always in the confectionery and cake shops when my parents started taking us to France for holidays. Probably not the effect Tolkien was going for at all. ;)

[Ivriniel]

I took twilight to mean 'twilight of Turumbar's people in the devastation of FA', as that part of the clue that was 'the real bit'.

[Pervinca Took]

Cryptic clues can sometimes work more like riddle clues, but usually they are more likely to be made up of anagrams and synonyms, etc of the words in the clue (with the straight part of the clue often being exactly what it seems to be).

[Ivriniel]

:) I'm learning. So, will look forwards to seeing what the answer is and reverse engineer :)

[Pervinca Took]

Why not have another go and learn on the job, so to speak?

Start with 'twilight.' What might you do with that, according to the conventions of cryptic clues?

[Ivriniel]

He mingles twilight with doom, initially.

hahaha I have a mindsight headache hahaha

okay - I'll try. I'll think out loud for you to explain why the headache hahahah

'hmm, is 'mingles' one of their 'special' words, not like 'annexe' - which I thought, meant 'join this bit with that bit' and it sort of 'did' in that the creature thing 'ET' WAS joined to the suffix - but they meant 'by territory' not by 'special word'.

Hmmm, now - what about 'mingles'. It could then, 'pet word to join' or it could be 'one of those elfy metaphor things, you know, like 'mingled light of the two trees' and - really - mingles is really one those 'middle earthy words' used everywhere. You know, like 'numenoreans mingling with lesser men' and 'teleri mingling with sindarins in beleriand' and then - the mingling of elf and man!

Ah, is this then a 'half-elfy' thing. Um - could be. So, now I want to say

Undomiel. She was that twilight, or even star thing, 'mingling' of night and light and of blood. A double match!!! hahahaha

Hmm, but Umbar really meant 'doom', but then again Undomiel did have 'the doom of Mortal men.

I'm sure my reasoning is all wrong.

Undomiel! hahahah

[Ivriniel]

Or wait

Undome means twighlight, and Umbar means doom in Elvish.

He mingles twilight with doom, initially

He mingles 'undome' with 'umbar', initially.

Mingles (anagram?)......"He" why HE? What on earth of an anagram can I possibly get out of either (twilight) or Undome. And then 'with' doom. Is the anagram on just 'undome' or on 'undome' AND 'umbar' or on the non-elfy words?

EDIT:

Seriously, I haven't stopped laughing for 15 minutes..........It can't possibly be Undomiel hahahaha she doesn't anagram out of the clue.

[Mithalwen]

He, I think, merely indicates that the answer is a male character. You are right about mingles suggesting an anagram. Initially suggests well just the initial of doom is needed too - but whether it is D or of a synonym or a translation I don't know..

[Pervinca Took]

'Mingles' might indeed mean 'mixes,' or becomes an anagram of itself. ;)

But you might have to do something with the word first. It might not be a translation of it that you need, but a synonym. (I suppose a translation is a kind of synonym, in a way, but not the kind that you need here).

[Galadriel55]

Undome means twighlight, and Umbar means doom in Elvish.

Isn't it Ambar? As in TurAMBAR, aka Master of Fate. Or Amarth, as in the Gondorian name for Mount Doom (Amon Amarth).

But anyways, Pervinca said it's not a translation. I was trying to work in some anagram of gloom or dusk, with the former being more promising, but the closest I got to matching the clue was getting Olog-hai, which is pretty obviously not the answer. I can't make Gollum fit either. But maybe this will help one of you guys.

[Pervinca Took]

Galadriel, you're very close with your anagram ideas.

Sorry not to have replied sooner. I tried to get into the thread this morning, but couldn't. My laptop seems to have a problem getting into threads at times.

[Galadriel55]

Ok, I keep trying different combinations without anywhere. I'm desperate enough to search up the different letter combinations on Encyclopedia of Arda to get something that fits. But in the meantime, to throw out another half-answer out there, is there a singular form for GOLODHRIM? I feel that it wouldn't have the M, though, so probably not it either.

[Ivriniel]

Ok,...GOLODHRIM? ....

I've gottit! HAHAHA DUSKodhrim.....hahahaha

Arwen Duskomiel, or Arwen Gloomomiel (she was a bit that way inclined in the movies, anyway hahaha) (crying from laughter)

(seriously, 'just in case' I looked up "Olog-dhrim" - a elf/orc realm somewhere, I heard).

[Mithalwen]

Maglor is very nearly an anagram of gloam, an archaic, poetic word for twighlight. He certainly was doomed but I can't explain the R..

[Pervinca Took]

Mith, you are very, very, very close. Correct synonym, wrong character.

[Mithalwen]

I am not sure as not exactly a character but Wormtongue is Grima son of Galmod which is an anagram of gloam and the initial d of doom.

[Pervinca Took]

Correct. Galmod, father of Grima who became 'a witless worm,' so to speak.

Over to you.