One Thing in Common

[Pitchwife]

This thread doesn't deserve to die, but the only thing I can come up with is:

Both of them gave the Elessar to a person they loved (Celebrimbor -> Galadriel,
Arwen -> Aragorn).

(The problem with this is that only in the movie it was Arwen who gave the E. to Aragorn, whereas in the book he got it from Galadriel, so this is probably not what you were thinking of...)

[Nerwen]

Sorry for the late reply, Pitchwife. I was away over Easter. And thanks for reviving the thread!

And no, that isn't the answer.

Please keep guessing. I'll give you another clue if you want one.

[The Might]

I'll go with a crazy idea on this one -

They were both reponsisble for the creation of banners:
Celebrimbor's body was used as a banner on a pole by Sauron's forces during their campaign, whilst Arwen made the banner for Aragorn.

I know, pretty crazy :D

[Pitchwife]

Might, that's an awesome solution!
I'll bet anything it's true, and even if it isn't, it's ingenious! If I may say so, the Quiz Room wasn't quite the same without you...

P.S. As for your riddle and my answer, I was talking about this here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12278&page=5).

[Nerwen]

Sorry, Might– I didn't notice you'd answered this.:o

You're quite right.

Please take the thread.:)

[The Might]

Wait... what? :eek:

I didn't see that one coming, was pretty sure that this was too crazy to be correct.

Anyways, let me see...


What do Elves of Imladris, the Dúnedain and the Orcs have in common?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Would it be knowing Celebrían? :D :rolleyes:

Or are you really thinking generally? Like, ALL Orcs, ALL Dúnedain?

[The Might]

No, not that, others knew Celebrían as well.
No, I don't mean ALL of them, but it may apply to all of them... not sure.

[The Might]

Meh... it's not that hard you know...

[Morsul the Dark]

they're all fading races?:confused:

[Hakon]

They all are part Elvish. The elves obviously are elvish, the orcs if consider the idea that they are corrupted elves and the Dùnedain if consider the fact that they are descended from Elros.

[Pitchwife]

Hmmm... three possible solutions, in addition to what has been posted above:
1. Some of all three groups took part in the Battle of Dagorlad (at the time of the Last Alliance).
2. Some of all three groups (if you count Elladan & Elrohir as Elves) took part in the Battle before the Morannon (in LotR Book V, Chapter X).
3. At least some of all three groups lived near and/or frequently used the High Pass of the North (Cirith Forn en Andrath).

[The Might]

Nope, none of them.

Keep in mind, as far as I am aware of, this similarity is fairly unique to these groups within M-e.

[Morsul the Dark]

not originally from Middle Earth?

Elves- Valor
Dunedaine- numenor
Orcs- created?

[The Might]

Nope.

[Eönwë]

Is it that their homelands are lost (or that they are not in them):

-Elves of Imladris- Valinor (they are exiled)
-Dunedain- Numenor (it was destroyed and they were also in a sense "exiled") or Arnor (it is non-existent)
-Orcs- Angband (it was also destroyed and the also had to flee)

[Eönwë]

Erm... Miggy? You there?

[The Might]

No, it's all much more simple. Let me put it this way as a hint... it rather has something to do with their lifestyle.

[Morsul the Dark]

Long lives?

[The Might]

No... let me put it this way... it's about something they all owned.

Hope this will help. :)

[Eönwë]

No... let me put it this way... it's about something they all owned.

Owned at the time or used to own?

[The Might]

No, something they all owned at the time of the War of the Ring. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Something like Rhudaur?

[The Might]

They owned Rhudaur? :eek:

No, no, something more material.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

They owned Rhudaur? :eek:

No, no, something more material.

Well, that's the first thing that occured to me :)

Hey, so what if... wasn't it some sort of cordial, they all had it? The miruvor of the Elves of Rivendell, the liquor of the Orcs, and a Dúnadan cordial - possibly remnant of the one used by Númenoreans?

I am not really sure if this is the right answer, I would probably need to give it a bit more thought.

[The Might]

Indeed. :)

[Nerwen]

You're good, Legate!
*is awed*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Actually, I am awed myself :) I did not expect that much, it was just a thing that occured to me. But a very nice riddle, TM, indeed! (And thanks, Nerwen ! :) )

But, okay, so what about these folks - let's try Frodo Baggins and... Nienor Níniel. What do they have in common?

[Pitchwife]

Running naked?
Frodo hopping around with his friends after escape from the barrow, Nienor running away from both Orcs and her Elven companions to Haudh-en-Elleth.

(P.S. I'm awed, too! And Might, that was really clever.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Like you said yourself, the other Hobbits did it too. So, no. This was something that neither Sam, nor Merry, nor Pippin shared with Nienor, but only Frodo did.

[Pitchwife]

Something to do with losing a parent?
Frodo was orphaned due to that boating accident, and Nienor was born, grew up and died during Húrin's captivity in Angband.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, but you are getting close.:)

[Loslote]

They both used false names? Underhill and Niniel?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, and I think in Nienor's case it wasn't her choice to pick the name as a cover or anything.

[Pitchwife]

What about this? : Both of them left the place where they had been born and spent their formative years and went to live somewhere else in their early twenties.
Frodo left Buckland and moved to Bag End, Hobbiton to live with Bilbo; Nienor left Hithlum (with Morwen) and moved to Thingol's court in Doriath. He was 22 at the time, she 20 or 21.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, although really a very nice try. I could as well accept that, because it's really good, but it's not the thing I have been looking for.

Okay, a hint: the question is made intentionally a bit more distant, so look around closer at those who were close to them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Does it have anything to do with Eagles? Nienor's father and uncle were rescued from peril by Eagles, as was Frodo's guardian, Bilbo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, but you are right in focusing at Bilbo, for example. Now I think it should be a bit easier to find the thing.

[Eönwë]

Nope, but you are right in focusing at Bilbo, for example. Now I think it should be a bit easier to find the thing.

I read that as "Now I think it should be a bit easier to find the ring." ;)

But anyway, hmm....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I read that as "Now I think it should be a bit easier to find the ring." ;)

Of course it should be easier to find the Ring if you focus on Bilbo, you silly Riders should have realised it a long time ago... ;)

[Morsul the Dark]

They both attended awesome parties thrown by relatives... I know it isn't right but I wanted to bump the thread

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It indeed isn't :) But nice for you to bump the thread here. Perhaps somebody wants to try? We are talking Frodo and Nienor here. Focusing on Bilbo was a good move. From there, one can start unfolding it...

[Pitchwife]

This is really really far-fetched, but let's give it a try.
Both had an elder relative who gave a necklace from a dragon hoard to an elven king: Bilbo to Thranduil (his parting gift near the end of The Hobbit), Húrin to Thingol (the Nauglamír).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ugh. No, that is maybe somewhat a bit too complicated.

What I am looking for has more something to do with their... social status, so to say.

[Mugwump]

let's try Frodo Baggins and... Nienor Níniel. What do they have in common?
The first thing that came to mind is that they were both carried away by water, so that they have no known final resting place in Middle Earth.

But since then you've given us further hints: focus on those close to them, and "social status." Let me think a bit about it. :)

Edit: They were both orphans and/or their fathers both drowned?

(Nienor's father Húrin Thalion killed himself by throwing himself into the sea, her mother Morwen Eledhwen was lost in a dragon attack; Frodo's father Drogo Baggins drowned in a boating accident along with Frodo's mother Primula).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, not really, but good try nevertheless. Social status, yes, good focus. The family relations are also a good focus. But there is something else what I am looking for.

[Inziladun]

Both were 'dispossessed' of their inheiritence; Frodo (voluntarily) of Bilbo, and Nienor of Húrin?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nope, not that. Okay, the riddle is intentionally somewhat "distanced", if I wanted to be more plain, the focus could have been as well just on the people whom Frodo and Nienor are related to, not on themselves. Maybe it is easier for you to find the answer if you first find something in common for these particular relatives of them, and then make a conclusion of what it meant for the "status" of Frodo and Nienor themselves.

[Mugwump]

Relatives of people (Bilbo, Hurin) whom Sauron was looking for or were enemies of Sauron?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nay, there were lots of other people whose parents or something were pursued by Sauron. No, this was not such a common trait (and I think it was quite unique, at least from top of the head I cannot think of anybody else).

[Mugwump]

Maybe it is easier for you to find the answer if you first find something in common for these particular relatives of them...
Which particular relatives of theirs? They each have way too many relatives. I give up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Which particular relatives of theirs? They each have way too many relatives. I give up.

Relatives who (logically of course) have something in common too, like their relationship to Frodo and Nienor. In other words, what do Frodo and Nienor have in common? Well, there was something which made their lives, fates, whatever, similar in the way because they had relatives (who were both "X" to them) and those relatives were both "Y". And that projected back on Frodo and Nienor. Now it probably sounds only far more confusing. Okay, if you think there is no way you could get it from here, I will tell you the names of the particular relatives.

[Mugwump]

Well ... they had relatives (who were both "X" to them) and those relatives were both "Y". And that projected back on Frodo and Nienor.
Um... f(x,y) = 2x^2 + 3*log(y-1)?

;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Does it mean that I should give the identities of the two relatives? ;)

[Mugwump]

Well, I certainly can't figure it out. You say it's unique, but if it's something that a relative of Nienor's had in common with a relative of Frodo's, then you'd be able to say the same thing about Nienor's siblings, Lalaith and Túrin Turambar. And it can't be anything related to Nienor's marriage to Túrin since Frodo never married (at least, not in Middle Earth). So I'm stumped.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, it has something to do with the people who raised them (or, "raised") - that is, Bilbo and Morwen, respectively. So it is something that concerns these two (something that, in fact, Bilbo and Morwen have in common) and through them it affects Frodo and Nienor.

[Mugwump]

Wow, that's tough... I can't think of anything Biblo and Morwen had in common, save that they both lived in Arda. One was a male, hobbit bachelor with no children who lived in Middle Earth, adopted a great nephew, and passed over to the Uttermost West, and the other was a female human who married and had three children, who lived in Beleriand and was apparently killed by a dragon.

They both met a dragon?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That would have very little to do with Frodo and Nienor themselves. The answer partially (even though just partially) concerns them, it's not just like "their relatives met a dragon" - that doesn't have much to do with them personally. Besides, like I said above, it's a thing which is not that common (many people in the stories have met dragons). And it has something to do with "status" or something like that, of the people...

[Morsul the Dark]

both were outcasts because of unpopular quests or decisions of their guardians?

Bilbo and the lonely mountain Morwen looking for her so returning looking like a wild woman

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, yes, I will accept Morsul's answer, although it is not exactly formulated the way I had in mind, the basic idea is there!

It was just so that for Frodo and Nienor, the person who raised them (Bilbo or Morwen) had the reputation of a "weird person" in the society because of doing weird things, being associated with Elves and all that stuff. In Bilbo's case I think it's clear, in Morwen's case it was the Easterlings who were afraid of her, calling her "a witch". So in other words, family reputation of being something awkward because of these two people.

So yes, that was it. Morsul, you may continue the thread.

[Morsul the Dark]

Here's one simply for fun since I can't think of anything...

Balrogs, Eagles, and Fell Beasts:p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

BLASPHEMY!!!

Well, they all had wi... uh... wild nature. You see, very dangerous in general - even the Eagles, as it is said in the Hobbit, they could have been very dangerous even to humans.

[Morsul the Dark]

Lol Legate I see you know the real answer:p

Wings:smokin:

Your thread once again

[Mugwump]

Aside from the movies and illustrations by countless artists (but not Tolkien's illustrations), where does Tolkien say that Balrogs had wings?

[Morsul the Dark]

Do Balrog's have wings (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11534&highlight=balrog+wings)

Look at this thread(one of many...many..countless threads on the subject there's a reason I put a smiley;) I happen to take the approach this way technically Tolkien says "Like Two vast wings" but later says "Its wings" also the numerous threads if the balrogs didn't fly to Morgoth's aid then they must be sprinters...

Anyway I take the approach "Hey that looks like Frank," the person gets closer and clearer "Oh it Is Frank."

But in all seriousness I didn't have a question so made up a stupid one which Legate got right away :rolleyes:

Legate back to you

[Mugwump]

Well for what it's worth I agree Balrogs have wings because I think they should have wings -- it's just way cooler. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, but you see, Mugwump, it's something like a legend around here :D If you are interested, you can attempt to revive the thread ;) (But if so, Valar have mercy on us...)

But then, as for looking for something in common... what do Galadriel, Gollum, Boromir, Balin and the Balrog have in common?

[Pitchwife]

But then, as for looking for something in common... what do Galadriel, Gollum, Boromir, Balin and the Balrog have in common?
You mean, apart from NOT having wings?:D

This is probably too easy, but - Moria? All of them went there or dwelt there for a while? (Galadriel had good relations with the Dwarves when she lived in Eregion, so she must have visited once or twice, I suppose.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, that's it - have been inside Moria (or passed it through, respectively). Dwarves were not usually folk who would let people visit just for having a cup of tea, but Galadriel actually passed through (in one account) when she was moving from Eregion to Lórien. So yeah, that was it. Not difficult at all.

Your turn, Pw :)

[Pitchwife]

Thanks! Now let's see... what might Frodo Baggins and Beleg Cúthalion have in common?

[Mugwump]

First names of five letters?

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, no. (And it's not having two names each, either. It's something both of them did.)

[Lindolirian]

Both overlooked the evil deeds of a companion's past. Beleg stayed with Turin despite his outlaw ways and Frodo accepted Gollum as a guide despite all his evil.

[Pitchwife]

Both overlooked the evil deeds of a companion's past. Beleg stayed with Turin despite his outlaw ways and Frodo accepted Gollum as a guide despite all his evil.

Ah, I'd almost forgotten about this! Good guess, Lindolirian - actually, this could be a perfectly valid answer, but it's not what I was thinking of. You're very, very close though - it has to do with Túrin and Gollum, respectively. Try to think of specific situations rather than their general attitude towards their companions.

[The Might]

Perhaps not only accepting their old deeds, but trying to bring them back to a good path.
Frodo trying to make Gollum remember his old identity as Smeagol and Beleg trying to make Turin return to Doriath.

[Pitchwife]

Nothing so complicated. Forget psychology and morals. All I'm looking for is two little episodes, one from LotR, one from the Narn, both having to do with something pretty concrete (as in, visible and touchable). As Bertolt Brecht said, "Grub first, then ethics".;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Grub, says you? So is it the lembas-offering episode? "This is a gift from Melian/Galadriel" "Thanks, save it for yourself, nassty master Beleg/Frodo"?

[Pitchwife]

:D
It is indeed. Well done, Legate! Your turn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ha! Okay, let's see about this :)

What do the Dwarves of Erebor, the Stoors and Dunlendings have in common?

[The Might]

I don't know if this explanation is too simple, but perhaps just that they all lived in Dunland, at least for some time?

Dunlendings - of course lived in Dunland
Stoors - crossed the Redhorn Pass and most of them settled south in Dunland
Dwarves of Erebor - were led there by Thráin after they were forced to flee

Perhaps one could add to this that they actually wanted other lands than Dunland.

Dunlendings - the rich lands of Rohan
Stoors - eventually made their way to the Shire or back to the Gladden Fields
Dwarves of Erebor - went to the northern Blue Mountains and later Erebor

EDIT: by the way I thought about the lembas episode with Frodo and Gollum but forgot that Beleg had done the same with Túrin.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

It is simple indeed, and I didn't expect it to be anything too difficult :) So it was indeed just the fact that they have lived in Dunland for a while. Your turn, Miggy :)

[The Might]

Not that tricky, but here goes:
What do Húrin and Basso Boffin have in common?

[Pitchwife]

Who in all the Shire is Basso Boffin?

[The Might]

I checked again, and his name is spelled correctly, it is Basso.
Well, you'll have to figure that out. ;)

[Galadriel55]

Well, Basso (as far as I know) traveled to the Sea, and Hurin drowned himself in the Sea...if that's a connection at all. :)
It's be nice to know if I got the answer right, but it'd would be a miracle if Might still didn't forget the answer! :)

[The Might]

It's been a long time, but I still recall what I had in mind.
It is indeed the fact that they both reached the sea as the first of their kind.

[Galadriel55]

Here's one. It shouldn't be too difficult.

Gandalf
Elwe
Ered Mithrin

[Nerwen]

Here's one. It shouldn't be too difficult.

Gandalf
Elwe
Ered Mithrin

The colour grey?

[Galadriel55]

Right you are! :) They all have "grey" in their names: Mithrandir, Thingol, Ered Mithrin (or Grey Mountains).

[Evisse the Blue]

It's been a while since Nerwen should have replied, please let me know if I'm being presumptuous in taking her place ;)

Here's an easy one (I think):

Galadriel
Sam
Tom Bombadil

[Galadriel55]

They all refused the temptation of the Ring?...

[Evisse the Blue]

That's right.

[Galadriel55]

Thanks, Evisse! How about...

Maedhros
Gwindor
Frodo
Beren

[Blind Guardian]

They all went on a 'journey', so to say.

Beren and Luthien to Angband
Frodo to Mordor
I don't really know who Gwindor is
And Maedhros with the Curse


(*looks up Gwindor* Wait he was also captured...so they all were in an evil land. 'Cause he was captured during the Unnumbered Tears)

[Galadriel55]

Good guess, BG, but not what I was thinking of.
I never thought of it that way - all of them being captured. That's a really good guess.

[LadyBrooke]

They were all permanetly injured because of the enemy

Maedhoros's hand had to be cut off to escape.
Frodo's finger was bitten off by Gollum
Gwindor was bent and broken following his escape from Morgoth.
Beren's hand was bitten off by Carcharoth.

If I'm right Blind Guardian can have my turn. :)

[Galadriel55]

You are right, though I was thinking more specifically that Gwindor's hand was cut off when he escaped from Angband, so all of the have maimed hands.

[LadyBrooke]

Since Blind Guardian never did it....

Legolas
Eludred/Elurin
Ingwion

(and no, its not that they're elves...:P)

[Galadriel55]

and no, its not that they're elves

They all have ears, and noses, and a mouth each, and they can all speak, and hear, and they all have names, and they all have a mommy and a daddy... :D

Seriously now:

Who's Ingwion? The Enc. of Arda and Google both failed to tell me that. Is it the son of Ingwe that Tolkien never wrote about? :p

If so, they are all the sons of rulers. Ingwe - the Vanyar, Dior - Doriath, and Thranduil - Lasgalen/Mirkwood.

[LadyBrooke]

They all have ears, and noses, and a mouth each, and they can all speak, and hear, and they all have names, and they all have a mommy and a daddy... :D

Seriously now:

Who's Ingwion? The Enc. of Arda and Google both failed to tell me that. Is it the son of Ingwe that Tolkien never wrote about? :p

If so, they are all the sons of rulers. Ingwe - the Vanyar, Dior - Doriath, and Thranduil - Lasgalen/Mirkwood.

Hey, he was written about...in HOME. :p

And very close...I was looking for something a bit more specific, they were all the sons of Kings, who never were what?

[Galadriel55]

When I read your post, the first thing that came to mind is "they were all the sons of Kings, who never were ... married!" :eek::D Aparantly all my common sense went on holiday. :rolleyes:

They weren't... ummm.... Wait, are you referring to the Kings or the Sons?

[LadyBrooke]

They weren't... ummm.... Wait, are you referring to the Kings or the Sons?

The Sons. :D The sons were never what....and married is a correct answer, but not what I'm looking for. :p

[Galadriel55]

The Sons. :D The sons were never what....and married is a correct answer, but not what I'm looking for. :p

O, because I thought you meant the Kings. They had sons, but never married. :rolleyes:

All princes that never became kings?

[LadyBrooke]

O, because I thought you meant the Kings. They had sons, but never married. :rolleyes:

Huh? Eludred and Elurin's father was married - to Nimloth (and I'm like the only person in the world who remembers that I think...what can I say, I fangirl Celeborn and his relatives. ;))

All princes that never became kings?
Yep. :D Your turn!

[Galadriel55]

That's what I meant - you can't be a father if you're not married, unless...:o yes, that. My brain went on strike.

(you're not the only person, I remember Celeborn's relatives :))

Nimloth
Morwen
Glorfindel
Celeborn


Bad list, but I don't have any good ideas.

[Urwen]

I wish to revive this, but I have no idea.....

[Galadriel55]

I wish to revive this, but I have no idea.....

I have no idea either. I don't remember what the answer was supposed to be.

[Urwen]

Then, would you mind if I just continue?

[Galadriel55]

Then, would you mind if I just continue?

Go for it.

[Urwen]

Androg

Mim
Maeglin
Turin

[Huinesoron]

Androg
Mim
Maeglin
Turin

If you ask me, they all got away with far too much before they died. :) Hmm.

Ah - it seems Androg and Mim cursed each other, which means all four had curses laid on them. Is that specific enough? I'm worried by the 'that other characters don't have' part of the thread - there were a lot of curses bouncing around Beleriand.

hS

[Urwen]

It is specific enough, and yes, I am aware, but it is good enough.

[Urwen]

If you ask me, they all got away with far too much before they died. :)



You don't like them, I take it?

As for me, I like half of them more than I should like, and I like half of them less than half of what they deserve.

[Huinesoron]

You don't like them, I take it?

As for me, I like half of them more than I should like, and I like half of them less than half of what they deserve.

Well, Androg was a murderer and attempted rapist, Mim went around scattering curses wherever he went, Turin brought down Nargothrond, and Maeglin betrayed Gondolin and tried his hand at infanticide. I think all of them fall firmly into the 'if you'd died sooner everyone around you would have been better off' category; whether I like them is beside the point. (For the record, I feel a lot of sympathy for Mim, but yikes was he malicious.)

It is specific enough, and yes, I am aware, but it is good enough.

So is that over to me?

hS

[Urwen]

Yes, it is.

And what's is this? You feel sympathy for an 'evil' character? Well, so do I. What a happy coincidence.

[Huinesoron]

Bilbo
Frodo
Samwise

... and no other named characters.*

*At least, not confirmed.

hS

[Urwen]

They were the only Hobbits who were allowed to sail to Valinor (to my knowledge)

[Huinesoron]

They were the only Hobbits who were allowed to sail to Valinor (to my knowledge)

Well, true, but this is something entirely independent of their race/species.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

The only three known/named as owners of Sting?

Or the only three actually *referred to* as Ringbearers in reference to the One Ring, since Sauron, Isildur, Sméagol and Deagol were not? Bilbo was ONCE, by Frodo, at the Havens, where he said 'Yes, I am coming. The Ringbearers should go together.'

[Huinesoron]

The only three known/named as owners of Sting?

Correct - though wielders, rather than owners. Bill, Bert, and Tom were collective owners, after all, but it's hard to imagine them wielding it. And presumably some Gondolin elf (maybe even Turgon himself) once owned and used it... but that's not confirmed.

Over to you.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

OK …

Bilbo
Frodo
Lobelia

[Galadriel55]

Owners/dwellers of Bag-End?

[Pervinca Took]

Close, but not correct.

Bungo, Otho, Sam and Frodo Gardner would also belong to the list of owners.

And dwellers would include all the above, plus Belladonna, Rose, Lotho and all Sam's children.

[Pervinca Took]

I am going to change this slightly, back to the version I originally made:

Bilbo
Frodo
Sam
Lobelia

[Urwen]

Ordinary folks who were nonetheless able to stand up against evil?

(I will always remember how Lobelia beat up the ruffians with an umbrella)

[Pervinca Took]

I like your reasoning, but so was Tom Cotton, to name but one. And were those 4 hobbits really ordinary?

....

G55 was closer.

EDIT: I agree with you about Lobelia. It's nice that she was redeemed and kind of liked in the end ... despite what happened to her son. :(

[Formendacil]

Owners of Bag-End who gave it away while alive (i.e. rather than dying and it being inherited):

Bilbo -> Frodo (when he left after The Party)
Lobelia -> Frodo (after she was freed from Lockholes and returned to her own people)
Frodo -> Sam (when he left for the Havens)
Sam -> Frodo Gardner (when he left for the Havens)

[Pervinca Took]

Formendacil is right.

This was my original idea, which I changed to people who gave Bag End to someone who was not a direct descendant (and left it whilst still alive), but I decided that was too convaluted, and changed it back.

Over to Formendacil!

[Formendacil]

Hmmmmmm...

Eldarion, Elboron, Eldacar, Galador

[Huinesoron]

Hmmmmmm...

Eldarion, Elboron, Eldacar, Galador

So. Two of these are children of an elf and a mortal (Eldarion, Galador). Two of them are the last named members of their lines (Eldarion, Elboron). All four of them are princes, but that doesn't seem specific enough.

Two of them are the first heir to a line - Eldarion to the house of Telcontar, Elboron to the Princeship of Ithilien. Galador is the founder of Dol Amroth, but is also the second known Prince of Belfalas (after his father). So are they all the second known to hold their title in a specific line?

Let's see what we can do with Eldacar. Hmm... since Isildur claimed the title of High King, Eldacar of Arnor (despite being much less exciting than his later southern cousin) was technically the second King of Arnor, after Valandil. So one possible answer is that they're the second known holder of/first known heir to their various titles.

Another answer, this time looking at Eldacar of Gondor, is that they're all children of two races. Eldarion and Galador are Elf-Man crosses; Elboron is Gondor/Rohan; and Eldacar of Gondor is son of a Gondorian father and a Northman mother (actually the same as Elboron, give or take a major migration). So that could also be what you're thinking of.

hS

[Formendacil]

So. Two of these are children of an elf and a mortal (Eldarion, Galador). Two of them are the last named members of their lines (Eldarion, Elboron). All four of them are princes, but that doesn't seem specific enough.

Two of them are the first heir to a line - Eldarion to the house of Telcontar, Elboron to the Princeship of Ithilien. Galador is the founder of Dol Amroth, but is also the second known Prince of Belfalas (after his father). So are they all the second known to hold their title in a specific line?

Let's see what we can do with Eldacar. Hmm... since Isildur claimed the title of High King, Eldacar of Arnor (despite being much less exciting than his later southern cousin) was technically the second King of Arnor, after Valandil. So one possible answer is that they're the second known holder of/first known heir to their various titles.

Another answer, this time looking at Eldacar of Gondor, is that they're all children of two races. Eldarion and Galador are Elf-Man crosses; Elboron is Gondor/Rohan; and Eldacar of Gondor is son of a Gondorian father and a Northman mother (actually the same as Elboron, give or take a major migration). So that could also be what you're thinking of.

hS

Your last formulation is closest, though I have a more specific fact in mind--i.e. Earendil would NOT share it.

[Huinesoron]

Your last formulation is closest, though I have a more specific fact in mind--i.e. Earendil would NOT share it.

They're all boys whose mother was of a different race than that they are held as belonging to. All four were very much their fathers' sons.

I can't think of anyone else who meets that precise description - all the candidates fail one way or another (assuming Dior is taken to be Elvish).

hS

[Formendacil]

They're all boys whose mother was of a different race than that they are held as belonging to. All four were very much their fathers' sons.

I can't think of anyone else who meets that precise description - all the candidates fail one way or another (assuming Dior is taken to be Elvish).

hS

You're on the cusp of it. Specific to their shared mixed race situations, what do they have in common?

[Urwen]

Their fathers were all descendants of Numenoreans and their mothers were not?

[Formendacil]

Their fathers were all descendants of Numenoreans and their mothers were not?

We have a winner!

(Specifically, I had it phrased in my mind as "children of Dúnedain fathers and non-Dúnedain mothers--but that's just the rose by another name).

On to Urwen.

[Urwen]

Turin, Eowyn, Sam

[Huinesoron]

Turin, Eowyn, Sam

Hmm. Turin and Sam both stabbed monsters by getting underneath them, but I think Eowyn chopped the Witch-King's steed's head off, so probably not that.

hS

[Urwen]

Hmm. Turin and Sam both stabbed monsters by getting underneath them, but I think Eowyn chopped the Witch-King's steed's head off, so probably not that.

hS


You're close.

[Huinesoron]

Both Sam and Eowyn were protecting someone when they went all monster-slayer, but... I feel like Glaurung just happened to be wandering past Brethil when Turin killed him? So not that either.

Was Eowyn using her own sword when she fought the Witch-King? The others weren't.

hS

[Urwen]

Both Sam and Eowyn were protecting someone when they went all monster-slayer, but... I feel like Glaurung just happened to be wandering past Brethil when Turin killed him? So not that either.

Was Eowyn using her own sword when she fought the Witch-King? The others weren't.

hS

Well, for all intents and purposes, Gurthang was Turin's sword, for it was remade for him. And he was protecting his wife/sister along with entirety of Brethil inhabitants.

But no, what I had in mind is more on the general side of things.

[Huinesoron]

But not, I assume, as general as 'they're all monster-slayers'?

hS

[Urwen]

But not, I assume, as general as 'they're all monster-slayers'?

hS

Eh.....:o

In my defense, I just woke up.

[Huinesoron]

Eh.....:o

In my defense, I just woke up.

I mean... they all killed non-humanoid monsters with swords. That's actually pretty specific, when you get down to it. Balrogs and trolls are humanoid, Smaug died to an arrow, Ungoliant isn't ever said to have gotten stabbed...

hS

[Urwen]

You're up.

[Huinesoron]

Um, okay, let's try this:

Feanor
Eol
Tar-Aldarion
Tarannon

Probably pretty easy.

hS

[Urwen]

Their wives were estranged from them?

[Huinesoron]

Their wives were estranged from them?

Yep, simple as that. Back to you.

hS

[Urwen]

This one is pretty easy too. :D

Eldacar, Zimraphel, Helm Hammerhand

[Huinesoron]

Oh, they all had their thrones nicked, didn't they

hS

[Urwen]

Yea.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so let's try something tricksy:

Fastred of Greenholm
Lily Brown
Bell Goodchild

... and no other named characters.

hS

[Urwen]

They are related to Sam, either via blood or marriage.

[Huinesoron]

They are related to Sam, either via blood or marriage.

They are indeed. So are a lot of other people. :)

hS

[Urwen]

There is very little known about them, and I can't think of anything else.

[Huinesoron]

There is very little known about them, and I can't think of anything else.

I'm afraid that's not the answer either. :) But between the two you're kind of edging closer.

hS

[Urwen]

They had famous spouses?

[Huinesoron]

They had famous spouses?

Not really, but again, you're sort of edging closer.

hS

[Urwen]

I am befuddled..... *shrug emoji*

[Huinesoron]

Okay, so: Urwen, your three answers together almost (but not quite) hit the mark.

-They're all Sam's relatives (how do we know that?).
-We know little about them (how little?).
-Their spouses are better known than them (why?).

There is a specific document which is key to this one.

hS

[Urwen]

They were all mentioned in Red Book of Westmarch?

[Huinesoron]

Fastred of Greenholm
Lily Brown
Bell Goodchild

... and no other named characters.

They were all mentioned in Red Book of Westmarch?

hS

[Urwen]

And this document was written by Sam? ;)

[Huinesoron]

And this document was written by Sam? ;)

Er. Hmm.

Okay, apparently the answer is no; it (in its final form) postdates him. (And no, I don't mean 'by several thousand years because it was written by Tolkien' ;))

The answer is in two parts: "They all appear in _____, and have ______."

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I wonder if this is something to do with founding a new surname, or bringing people into the world who do. (Fairbairn, Gardner). But I can't make it work. The same would be true of the Gaffer and Tolman Cotton.

Ah ... missed the clue.

They all appear in the Appendix of Family Trees

and

...

They all marry a descendant of someone? Someone high up the Gamwich tree?

...

No. Faramir Took does that as well.

[Huinesoron]

So what is the difference between these three and Faramir Took?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

I don't know. I think only the 10 day rule can save us on this one.

Goodchild was a surname JRRT considered for Sam.

Did he consider Brown and Fairbairn as surnames for different or more important characters as well?

[Huinesoron]

I don't know. I think only the 10 day rule can save us on this one.

I mean, if you feel like ignoring the thread for a week and a half, um... feel free? It's not actually that hard, though. There's a very specific, named document in which all three appear - which is their only appearance - and what they have in common is what visibly distinguishes them from the other people in that document.

Goodchild was a surname JRRT considered for Sam.

Did he consider Brown and Fairbairn as surnames for different or more important characters as well?

Not so far as I know.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

That's the thing ... I'd guess something like the King's letter to Samwise, but it's after Bell's time. Lily is probably still alive ... but if they're mentioned there in a 'son of' and 'daughter of' capacity for Sam and Rose, it would be unusual to either not name the other parent or to name the mothers instead of the fathers. Also, why would the King mention Fastred when I believe Elanor is still a child, although not a young one?

Was I right about the 'they are in' being a family tree/trees?

[Pervinca Took]

I mean, if you feel like ignoring the thread for a week and a half, um... feel free? It's not actually that hard, though. There's a very specific, named document in which all three appear - which is their only appearance - and what they have in common is what visibly distinguishes them from the other people in that document.



Not so far as I know.

hS

I didn't mean to complain. It's just that the answers to my current password would work in this thread, and I wanted to drop them in here once the last one is guessed. ;)

Well, all 3 appear on the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise. Is that the document?

I wish I could say they're the only 3 spouses mentioned, but 6 marriages are indicated on that document.

... whoops ... there are 7! Hob and Rowan. Rowan must have been a girl, then, unless the Shire was more forward-thinking than we thought.

[Pervinca Took]

I mean, if you feel like ignoring the thread for a week and a half, um... feel free? It's not actually that hard, though. There's a very specific, named document in which all three appear - which is their only appearance - and what they have in common is what visibly distinguishes them from the other people in that document.



Not so far as I know.

hS

It may be the only document where all three appear, but Fastred must appear somewhere else, or we wouldn't know that his children were Elfstan and Firiel ... unless only Elanor is named as parent in this other source.

[Pervinca Took]

How about this?

They all appear in the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise

AND

They all three have a unique surname.

1. Bell is the only 'real' Goodchild ever mentioned (Christopher wouldn't let his dad make Sam a Goodchild ... so that was never *really* a character).
2. Lily Brown is the only Brown ever mentioned.
3. Fastred is the only 'of Greenholm' (is that a surname, like the Dutch ''Van" or the French "De?"), because his children and wife, and he himself, (supposedly upon his marriage), took the name of Fairbairn.

[Huinesoron]

How about this?

They all appear in the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise

AND

They all three have a unique surname.

1. Bell is the only 'real' Goodchild ever mentioned (Christopher wouldn't let his dad make Sam a Goodchild ... so that was never *really* a character).
2. Lily Brown is the only Brown ever mentioned.
3. Fastred is the only 'of Greenholm' (is that a surname, like the Dutch ''Van" or the French "De?"), because his children and wife, and he himself, (supposedly upon his marriage), took the name of Fairbairn.

Correct!

The Longfather Tree is the document I was looking for. I was phrasing the other part as 'they are the only person from their family ever named', but it comes to the same thing.

Well done to both of you - Urwen got tantalisingly close - and over to [b]Pervinca.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

OK. I am using the answers and password from my last password puzzle, for which I am not willing to give away the theme until at least a couple of people have had a go at guessing.

With one caveat, which I will defend, I believe these are the only known characters to whom this applies. It's something that I would say is rarer in Tolkien's works than it is in 'real life.' There could have been many other cases, but if there were, Tolkien did not report them.

Aragorn
Luthien
Idril
Niniel
Finwe
Turin

EDIT: If, once the theme is guessed, anyone can cite any further examples, I will add them with my apologies.

[Urwen]

Is it some kind of physical characteristic?

[Pervinca Took]

Yes, they all had a sixth finger, like Anne Boleyn. :D

Only kidding.

No.

[Urwen]

I am drawing a blank here. :|

[Urwen]

They all had magical powahs? :p

[Pervinca Took]

Well ....

When you thought the password was couples, you were wrong, but you were closer, thematically, than the above two answers are.

[Urwen]

People who married golden-haired people?

[Pervinca Took]

That is wrong for at least 3 of them.

[Huinesoron]

Hmm.

It can't be to do with their children: Turin and Nienor never had any. It can't be their parents, because Finwe never had any (named). It can't be anything to do with their deaths, because Idril never did.

Is it something to do with them all having two suitors (of varying degrees)? Aragorn has Arwen and Eowyn, Luthien had Daeron and Beren, Idril had Tuor and some elf who just doesn't get mentioned enough for me to remember his name (;)), Niniel had Turin and Brandir, Turin... well, he was one of Finduilas' suitors, but also I guess Finduilas & Niniel. And Finwe had Miriel and Indis.

But those last two kind of break it: while the other four had one they rejected and one they married, Finwe was married to both of them, and Turin didn't know both at the same time.

If it is this, is your caveat Tar-Miriel? (Or Tar-Ancalime, who was a total fairytale princess when it comes to rejecting suitors.)

hS

[Urwen]

some elf who just doesn't get mentioned enough for me to remember his name (;))
hS


How could you do this to me? :(

[Urwen]

Also, new password is up.

[Pervinca Took]

Huinesoron has the answer, more or less.

They were all loved (romantically) by two people, not just one.

Not that common a thing in Tolkien. Only one of his characters even remarries, as far as I am aware.

CAVEATS:

I am not counting Finduilas. *She* loved Gwindor, then Turin, but I believe Turin only felt brotherly affection for *her*. (Don't shudder at this. He was blameless when it came to Niniel, unless you count not accepting 'No' the first time and ignoring Brandir's advice (IIRC)).

I include Idril, because my gut feeling is that Maeglin did love her. I have a friend whose parents were first cousins. I'm not saying it's a good idea for such a thing to happen often. It isn't. But I am not grossed out by the idea of it happening occasionally.

I exclude Eowyn, because I would definitely *not* dignify Grima's urges with the name of love.

Ditto others who lusted after Luthien. Only 2 are presented as loving her.

Are there any I have missed?

I thought at first I was going to have to use Edith as an answer to have enough for a password (she had got engaged to another man by the time Tolkien was 21, but broke it off when Tolkien got back in touch with her and declared his feelings unchanged).

EDIT: Do I have to include Ancalime? Was she *loved* by two or more men?

[Urwen]

Would you like to try the password now, Pervinca?

[Urwen]

Also, which two people loved Turin?

[Pervinca Took]

Niniel and Finduilas.

[Urwen]

In response to Huinesoron: Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin



Is that enough for you, or do you need more? :p

[Pervinca Took]

And it's Huinesoron's turn again, of course. Forgot to say it.

[Urwen]

Give us a puzzle, Huinesoron.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, let's try this one:

-Indis
-Ancalime
-Vorondil

There may be other examples, but I can't come up with any right now.

hS

[Urwen]

Is it something to do with spouses again? Because Vorondil had none.

[Huinesoron]

Is it something to do with spouses again? Because Vorondil had none.

He had a pretty famous son, so unless this is another HoME XIII factoid, I think he probably did. :)

It's mostly not to do with spouses, no.

I guess Finwe could also be on the list.

hS

[Urwen]

They all held a position which didn't exist beforehand?


They all had royal blood?

[Huinesoron]

They all held a position which didn't exist beforehand?

Vorondil was Steward of Gondor like his dad.

They all had royal blood?

I'm not sure Vorondil did.

hS

[Urwen]

Can't think of anything else.

[Urwen]

Oh wait. They all had a relative named Maeglin, did they not? :p


Or maybe they all wore wool hats and spoke in southern Irish accents?

[Huinesoron]

Oh wait. They all had a relative named Maeglin, did they not? :p

Truly, do we not all have a relative named Maeglin in our hearts?

hS

[Huinesoron]

Okay, let's try this one:

-Indis
-Ancalime
-Vorondil

There may be other examples, but I can't come up with any right now.

hS

Okay, so:

-For Indis, this was Finwe's fault.
-For Ancalime, it was Tar-Aldarion's.
-For Vorondil, it was Earnil's.

Of the guesses so far, Urwen's 'position which didn't exist beforehand' comes closest.

hS

[Urwen]

They were both forced to act as regents in the absence of true ruler?

[Huinesoron]

They were both forced to act as regents in the absence of true ruler?

No. I think you're thinking of Vorondil's son Mardil.

EDIT: reposting for the new page.

-Indis
-Ancalime
-Vorondil

hS

[Urwen]

They were estranged from someone they loved?

[Huinesoron]

They were estranged from someone they loved?

I'd love to know how you came up with that regarding Vorondil, who as far as I know basically exists as a name and title.

This characteristic refers to all three characters (four if you include Finwe; Aldarion and Earnil would not meet the criterion).

hS

[Urwen]

I am perplexed.

[Urwen]

Hint?

[Urwen]

Actually, by the ten-day rule, I am allowed to start a new one. :cool:

[Huinesoron]

Actually, by the ten-day rule, I am allowed to start a new one. :cool:

I don't think the intent of that rule is 'I can't be bothered to solve your puzzle so I'll just wait a couple of weeks and give my own', but whatever.

Indis was the first elf to marry a divorcee; Ancalime was the first woman to be King's Heir; Vorondil was the first Steward of Gondor to inherit the post. So they were all the first beneficiaries of a change in the law.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I asked for another hint and you never gave one.

Besides, you can't be bothered to solve my stuff either, even when I earn my turns fair and square. I practically have to beg you to try and solve my puzzles at times, so you're the last person who should complain about this. >.<

[Huinesoron]

Well, I asked for another hint and you never gave one.

Besides, you can't be bothered to solve my stuff either, even when I earn my turns fair and square. I practically have to beg you to try and solve my puzzles at times, so you're the last person who should complain about this. >.<

And if I had either posted complaining that no-one was guessing this, or sauntered into an idle thread and posted a new puzzle of my own, you might have an argument here. But I didn't, so you don't. :) I'm just not playing at all, which is entirely my right.

Anyway, the thread is yours; I hope it brings you great joy and merriment.

hS

[Urwen]

But you used to, and I miss your riddles.....

[Urwen]

Honestly, these aren't as fun as they were without you.

[Urwen]

Tar-Miriel, Amroth, Hurin, Arvedui