How hard and long was it, Aragorn?

[alatar]

The words, bolded in the quote below, have annoyed me since I've first read The Council of Elrond chapter in FotR:

Originally Posted by Aragorn

I have had a hard life and a long; and the leagues that lie between here and Gondor are a small part in the count of my journeys.

Why doesn't it read, 'I have had a hard and long life,' as this unwashed person would state it?

Is the wording accidental, temporal, or is there some deeper reason the phrase was formed thus?

[Pitchwife]

Interesting question, alatar! *rolls up philologic sleeves*

The first thing that comes to my mind is rhythm. Consider

I have had a HARD life and a LONG

versus

I have had a HARD and LONG life

(X for primary stress, x for secondary stress).

The first version just 'rolls' better in my ear - the length and hardness both are stressed duly without the stresses getting cramped, if you see (or rather hear) what I mean. I'm sure the Prof, like any great writer, paid close attention to such things as the rhythm of his sentences - as evidenced e.g. in Tom Bombadil's dialogue, which is for whole paragraphs in the same metre as his verse, just printed as prose.

Another aspect - I think Aragorn (or Tolkien) didn't just mean that his life was a) hard, and b) long, without the two qualities having anything closer to do with each other. Rather, he says:
"I have a hard life
[get that, Boromir, you're not the only one who's been fighting the Shadow]
and a long
[so I've been doing that for a while longer than you]."
Long gets the final stress, but it's enhanced by the preceding hard which qualifies it - meaning he hasn't just led any long life, but a hard long life, a long life full of hardship; and the rhythm, with its two carefully placed stresses, hammers the point home.

(I just lurve close reading, in case you haven't noticed.)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(I just lurve close reading, in case you haven't noticed.)

I sometimes oppose to close-reading novels for litte details as such, because I have the feeling that half the time all these little bums and holes in the wording were put without intention by the author, and we are trying to make odds and ends out of them. This time, though, the wording really stands out. It could have been about rhythm, but there are so many other ways to say it with a rhythm but without the awkward phrasing (like, "My LIFE was HARD and LONG" - iambic rhythm, but rhythm nonetheless).

So it is probably the second thing that you said.

But then, the beginning of the sentence is also a bit awkward: "I have had a hard life and a long". Why "have had", and not just one or the other, or a different word altogether (like "lead")? As in, it was that way until I took the responsibility to take care of Frodo upon myself? Or meaning that he knows there's great danger ahead and his life is very likely to be cut short?

It's odd.

[Morthoron]

I can't get past the phrasing of your question, Al.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I can't get past the phrasing of your question, Al.

Indeed, I've wondered as well whether Aragorn was implying anything about his long betrothal to Arwen here. 38 years, poor guy... I'm sure it could get pretty hard at times.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I sometimes oppose to close-reading novels for litte details as such, because I have the feeling that half the time all these little bums and holes in the wording were put without intention by the author, and we are trying to make odds and ends out of them.

D'accord, if you mean that the author probably didn't ponder consciously about the wording and rhythm of every little phrase. But great writers, I think, have that kind of stuff at the tip of their little fingers and do it most of the time without having to think about it - it just feels right: like a painter knowing by intuition that a painting needs a touch of green in this precise part of the canvas, or a good guitar player bending exactly the right note in a solo. Which doesn't mean that we can't think about it and try to learn why it feels right.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It could have been about rhythm, but there are so many other ways to say it with a rhythm but without the awkward phrasing (like, "My LIFE was HARD and LONG" - iambic rhythm, but rhythm nonetheless).

So it is probably the second thing that you said.

Well, rhythm as I understand it here isn't about putting a phrase in any old metre to make it sound more dignified or whatever, it's about finding the right rhythm that complements and emphasizes the meaning. The two things I said are actually two aspects of the same thing.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But then, the beginning of the sentence is also a bit awkward: "I have had a hard life and a long". Why "have had", and not just one or the other, or a different word altogether (like "lead")?

Don't they teach you the proper use of perfect and imperfect in school nowadays?
He could say "I have a hard life", but then he couldn't add "and a long", because then he'd be making a general statement about his entire life, and he can't foresee how long it's going to be in the end.
If he said "I had a hard life and a long", he would be near the end of his life and looking back on the whole.
But what he's doing here, at a turning point in his life, is summing up his life so far, up to and including the present, and what it has made him:

"I have had a hard life and a long [and it has left its traces on me; so don't you wonder, Boromir, that I don't quite look like your mental image of Isildur's heir]."

Not awkward or odd at all.

[Rumil]

I doubt Elrond & co. were too impressed by Aragorn's claim of a long life, having several thousand years on him. I'd imagine these words were spoken with a long hard look at Boromir.

The phrasing does seem archaic, even poetical, but as with the thee and thou discussion, Aragorn does seem to switch between 'casual' and 'heroic' speech patterns depending on who he's chatting with. The Council is necessarily formal, heroic and certainly archaic, or at least most of its members were!

Er, yeah Morth, was thinking that Alatar had been hijacked by spammers until I read the post .

[Narnangol]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Frodo tells Strider already in Bree:" You began to talk to me like the Bree folk, but your voice has changed ." And really, even then Aragorn uses "cannot" instead of "can't", "do not" instead of "don't", "let us" instead of "let's", "I will" instead of "I'll" "I think not" instead of "I don't think so" "have I not?" instead of "haven't I?" (In fact, only Hobbits and Bree-folk speak like that)

To me all this makes his speech sound more noble and ancient, and not commonplace.

Originally Posted by Rumil

...Aragorn does seem to switch between 'casual' and 'heroic' speech patterns depending on who he's chatting with.

I saw this, too; Aragorn's change in manner of speech is at times very noticeable, to Frodo as well as the readers, apparently. (However, his 'default' style - sans contractions, with more inversions etc - does seem to be so that he sounds less commonplace. Especially when he is Strider and his true identity as yet unrevealed, it hints at his nobility.) Tolkien explains this in Appendix F:

It will be noticed that Hobbits such as Frodo, and other persons such as Gandalf and Aragorn, do not always use the same style. This is intentional[...]It was in any case natural for much-travelled folk to speak more or less in the manner of those among whom they found themselves, especially in the case of men who, like Aragorn, were often at pains to conceal their origin and their business.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Don't they teach you the proper use of perfect and imperfect in school nowadays?

No, actually. That is probably why a lot of second-language speakers know the grammar of that language better than native speakers.

It's just that that phrase sounds a bit like "I have had... [and now I have...]"

Or maybe, like you said, it's me mixing up my haves and hads.

[Morthoron]

"I have had a hard life and a long...." is indeed an archaic bit of English prosaic poesy, but it is ungainly. I'm too lazy to pull out Dickens, but I think he would have phrased it "I've had a hard life and long..." omitting the "a", which seems to be the awkard aspect of the clause.

[Lollipop010900]

Leave him alone! He HAS had a hard and long life and it doesn't really matter how he says it if he is telling the truth.

[Mithalwen]

Noone has said Aragorn is lying. The thread is discussing Tolkien's use of language which is quite important in a literary work: particularly perhaps in one written by a professor of Philology.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Noone has said Aragorn is lying. The thread is discussing Tolkien's use of language which is quite important in a literary work: particularly perhaps in one written by a professor of Philology.

So, Mith, are you saying the previous poster had a misconception and a wrong?

[Inziladun]

Aragorn's feet should be held to the fire for his grammatical gobbledygook! Make the rogue have to wear wooden sh... oh, right. Never mind

[Lollipop010900]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Noone has said Aragorn is lying.

I know that but i was just defending my imaginary lover!

[Kath]

I have just finished re-reading The Hobbit and noted the same sentence as Esty did! Was just coming here to point it out but I find she got there first. Ah well. Makes sense to me all the same!

[Belegorn]

I have to say the title of this thread is so funny. I don't know how anyone could think differently from the thread's title and the author's intent. haha

[alatar]

Aragorn, after 87 celibate years, you describe your life however you choose buddy...

[skip spence]

Well, you could liken life to male genitalia: simple, soft, straight, relaxed and hanging freely. Then women comes along, and it becomes hard. Hard and long.

[alatar]

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Well, you could liken life to male genitalia: simple, soft, straight, relaxed and hanging freely. Then women comes along, and it becomes hard. Hard and long.

This is an inappropriate thread title. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

And this quote just made my day.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Just one question, Guinevere: Is there any other utterance of Aragorn's or others that is so...well...different (and odd to these ears)? Why (to me) just the one?

After quite a spell of time, I've stumbled upon yet another instance of Tolkien's use of similar language.
In HOME VIII The War of the Ring, Legolas says:

'But whatever way we chose, I see a dark path and hard before each of us ere the end.'

To me that's even more odd sounding than Aragorn's quote that began this thread.
The explanation of the wording seems to be one of two options: Legolas has spent far too much time around Aragorn; or both sentences are indeed just examples of the "Tolkienisms" that are part of the appeal these books have for us.