Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Juicy-Sweet]

Came about this article

http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/...ddle-earth.htm

estimating that Moria at it's peak had a population of 200 000 dwarves at its peak.

I guess the population wasnt much lower when they woke up the Balrog in TA 1980. Since they had found mithril and they were richer than ever, I guess plenty of dwarves wanted to lived there.

This means that ONE Balrog can beat 200 000 dwarves in combat - something I find a bit crazy - and it has some other implications.

The Balrog and Gandalf (the Grey) can be consideres of even power, since they both died trying to kill each other. Or killed each other, while dying in the process

Saruman is stronger than Gandalf (the Grey), as he managed to dominate him and improsion him in Orthanc, as well as being his master etc.

This means Saruman should have been able to, single handedly, to clear out all of Rohan and then Minas Tirith when he had rested a bit.

Since he is worth 200 000 + dwarves in fighting power himself alone, it also seems his army of 10 000 orcs was sorta superfluous and not worth all the trouble. He should have spent the time exercising his own martial arts instead.

I find this silly ... so I prefer to go back to the first premise and assume that the Balrog had helpers, and lots of them. We arent told how exactly the Balrog vs. Dwarves war happened.

Alternatively, we can lower the population of Moria to something more easy to handle, like 10 000. And assume the Balrog used a sort of hit-and-run tactics, killing them in small isolated groups.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

This means that ONE Balrog can beat 200 000 dwarves in combat - something I find a bit crazy - and it has some other implications.

I don't think that's a valid interpretation. I have little doubt that a number of that magnitude could destroy a Balrog's physical body, but one must consider that fear factor it must have had, as well as the Dwarves' ignorance of what they were even facing. Not knowing one's enemy is a terrible drawback, and you have to also keep in mind that a large number of Dwarves, certainly at least many hundreds, were driven from Erebor by a single dragon, a creature they did know well.

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

Saruman is stronger than Gandalf (the Grey), as he managed to dominate him and improsion him in Orthanc, as well as being his master etc.

Saruman's ability to imprison Gandalf to my mind is merely indicative of the authority he'd been given as the head of the Order, not necessarily of a superiority of innate power.

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

Alternatively, we can lower the population of Moria to something more easy to handle, like 10 000. And assume the Balrog used a sort of hit-and-run tactics, killing them in small isolated groups.

I think that's reasonable. Moria would hardly have been suited to combat involving hundreds inside the mines anyway; its defenses seem to have been justifiably geared toward repelling invaders. They wouldn't have been prepared for something like the Balrog appearing suddenly inside .

[Draugohtar]

I think you are making a false equivalency.

Being able to defeat the conqueror of a third party, does not automatically make one capable of defeating that third party personally.


For example let's consider a Heavy tank.


Any number of troops with light arms would probably be defeated by a tiny tank crew, equipped as they are with heavy armament (and presumably a huge amount of ammunition.)

However 1 solider with a suitable anti-tank missile has a fair chance of emerging victorious.

That same soldier is going to be utterly vanquished by a relative small number of troops armed with only light weaponry.


---

Talking about Balrogs, Gandalf and huge potential Dwarf armies we are ignoring the magic factor.

The fact is that Balrogs are massively sorcerously equipped, being as they are, fallen Maiar. I doubt that there was any Dwarf, or Dwarf cadre even remotely equipped to counter such power.

Consider that the only people we know of, who have been capable of effective combat with Balrogs, prior to Gandalf, were spectacularly powerful Eldar. Even 'run of the mill' first age or related Elves were no match for Balrogs.

A small army of Balrogs could drive off Ungoliant, who in her turn had totally cowed, and albeitly reduced, Morgoth - a Valar.

Further we have little evidence that Dwarf weaponry could even significantly harm a Balrog. Consider that Gandalf was hewing away at the Balrog with Turgon's own sword (a masterpiece of elven craft of a passed age, and magic to boot), and it wasn't exactly making short work of Mr Balrog.

Now Gandalf can counter the Balrog's sorcery, being internally, a Maiar himself. He then can meet it on 'equal' terms and has the right sword for the job.

However in mortal guise Gandalf is indeed going to be arrow or axe fodder for a huge army of Dwarves, and doesn't appear to be equipped with the sort of mass combat magic that could take out a Dwarven army. So just as the soldier with the ATM, he (or Saruman) is going to be in a tight spot faced with such foes.

So there we are:

The Balrog is a tank.

Gandalf is a soldier with an Anti-Tank Missile.

A Dwarf Army is a battalion of light infantry.

Solved :P

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think that's a valid interpretation. I have little doubt that a number of that magnitude could destroy a Balrog's physical body, but one must consider that fear factor it must have had, as well as the Dwarves' ignorance of what they were even facing. Not knowing one's enemy is a terrible drawback, and you have to also keep in mind that a large number of Dwarves, certainly at least many hundreds, were driven from Erebor by a single dragon, a creature they did know well.

Not ENTIRELY convinced by this, although I do see where you are coming from.

It struck me that we dont know if the dwarves at the time of the Balrog's arrival were in good fighting condition - maybe they had few warrioirs and most of them were wimpy mithril craftsmen.

Saruman's ability to imprison Gandalf to my mind is merely indicative of the authority he'd been given as the head of the Order, not necessarily of a superiority of innate power.

I've always understood the book as implying that Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf. Saruman's the top dog etc.

I

think that's reasonable. Moria would hardly have been suited to combat involving hundreds inside the mines anyway; its defenses seem to have been justifiably geared toward repelling invaders. They wouldn't have been prepared for something like the Balrog appearing suddenly inside .

This is a good point. Allthough they should have been able to set up some defenses eventually - maybe destroying soe pillars to bury the Balrog again.

The balrogs ability to "move fast as if winged" or whatever the correct quote in would sure be a big boost for it in hit an run guerilla tactics. Would have been a real nasty year for the dwarves, with the balrog attacking all over the place killing small groups.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

Came about this article

http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/...ddle-earth.htm

estimating that Moria at it's peak had a population of 200 000 dwarves at its peak.

He doesn't even present it as an estimate, simply a statement. Nothing I am aware of, either in Tolkien's writing or in our knowledge of midieval history (the closest in level of advancement to Middle Earth thru the 3rd age) would seem to support such a population, or anything even on that order of magnitude.

Even 10,000, for a cave-dwelling population, seems high - but even if you go with that population, there seems no indication the Balrog initiated a direct frontal assault. He lives in a realm of tunnels which he knows very well (especially the lower ones). He also has some level of (what might be thought of as magical) arts - witness him perceiving Gandalf's "shutting spell" and delivering a counter-spell that breaks Gandalf's control.

So, I'd imagine him sneaking around, finding and killing Dwarves where he finds them, and, when approached by a force, slashing them, bashing them, and disappearing back into the bowels of the earth. In a tunnel, the Dwarves can't surround him and attempt to overwhelm him with superior numbers.

Essentially, each confrontation becomes something like 20 to 1 (or even 50 to 1). If the Balrog can win that fight, and maintain his stamina, he can kill Thousands of Dwarves - 20 at a time.

Until, finally, the Dwarves realize they can't keep that up.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

He doesn't even present it as an estimate, simply a statement. Nothing I am aware of, either in Tolkien's writing or in our knowledge of midieval history (the closest in level of advancement to Middle Earth thru the 3rd age) would seem to support such a population, or anything even on that order of magnitude.

Even 10,000, for a cave-dwelling population, seems high - but even if you go with that population, there seems no indication the Balrog initiated a direct frontal assault. He lives in a realm of tunnels which he knows very well (especially the lower ones). He also has some level of (what might be thought of as magical) arts - witness him perceiving Gandalf's "shutting spell" and delivering a counter-spell that breaks Gandalf's control.

So, I'd imagine him sneaking around, finding and killing Dwarves where he finds them, and, when approached by a force, slashing them, bashing them, and disappearing back into the bowels of the earth. In a tunnel, the Dwarves can't surround him and attempt to overwhelm him with superior numbers.

Essentially, each confrontation becomes something like 20 to 1 (or even 50 to 1). If the Balrog can win that fight, and maintain his stamina, he can kill Thousands of Dwarves - 20 at a time.

Until, finally, the Dwarves realize they can't keep that up.

London and Paris were at 200 000 in the middle ages at some point.

Killing 20 dwarfs a day on an average day, he would get 7300 in a year. Funnily that adds up pretty well with the 10 000 population.

[Juicy-Sweet]

It's quite a gruesome plotline now.

The dwarves desperately try to fight the Balrog - trying to contain it by caving in rooms, closing off sections, luring it near water reservoirs and trying to drown it etc. (The parts visited in LOTR were undamaged, but the fighting probably took place deeper down.). The King sits in the command room getting the MIA list of names every day and making desperate plans.

Another things has dawned on me - there were survivors, but nobody knows it was a Balrog. The elves would surely had recognized it, if the story got around that it was a shadowy-flamy figure that sorta looked like it had wings, but maybe it didnt have them, wielding a whip of fire. I dont find it credible that the dwarves kept the description of the attacker a secret - and i dont find it credible either they forgot it. Its a mayor event in their legends. So I suppose NO SURVIVORS SAW IT. Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them. Maybe the small groups of dwarves sometimes just disappeared without a trace - the balrog could toss them into the wells for instance. The Balrog would want to remain secret, lest the elves would go looking for it. Maybe a few dawrves saw glipses of it and such - but noone got a good look so they could describe it.

It's completely like the 1979 ALIEN movie now - just with a Balrog instead of the alien, Moria indtead of a spaceship (both are confined artificial structures), "someplace deep" instead of an unknown planet as "the place they should not have disturbed".

Except it took a whole year and thousands were killed bit by bit. I imagine the surviving dwarves had sorta strained nerves when they left and one or two had developed a solid paranoia. Yeech.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

It's quite a gruesome plotline now.

The dwarves desperately try to fight the Balrog - trying to contain it by caving in rooms, closing off sections, luring it near water reservoirs and trying to drown it etc. (The parts visited in LOTR were undamaged, but the fighting probably took place deeper down.). The King sits in the command room getting the MIA list of names every day and making desperate plans.

Another things has dawned on me - there were survivors, but nobody knows it was a Balrog. The elves would surely had recognized it, if the story got around that it was a shadowy-flamy figure that sorta looked like it had wings, but maybe it didnt have them, wielding a whip of fire. I dont find it credible that the dwarves kept the description of the attacker a secret - and i dont find it credible either they forgot it. Its a mayor event in their legends. So I suppose NO SURVIVORS SAW IT. Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them. Maybe the small groups of dwarves sometimes just disappeared without a trace - the balrog could toss them into the wells for instance. The Balrog would want to remain secret, lest the elves would go looking for it. Maybe a few dawrves saw glipses of it and such - but noone got a good look so they could describe it.

It's completely like the 1979 ALIEN movie now - just with a Balrog instead of the alien, Moria indtead of a spaceship (both are confined artificial structures), "someplace deep" instead of an unknown planet as "the place they should not have disturbed".

Except it took a whole year and thousands were killed bit by bit. I imagine the surviving dwarves had sorta strained nerves when they left and one or two had developed a solid paranoia. Yeech.

I'd never thought of the loss of Moria this way, but assuming as I generally do that the Balrog didn't have an army with him it does appeal to me. It's an image which I'd never really considered; I mostly just picture Durin VI having an epic duel with the Balrog. But of course I'd never really accounted for the time which passed before the Balrog slew Náin I and the Dwarves finally abandoned Moria. The idea of the Dwarves holding out as this demon stalked them for a year is a satisfyingly harrowing one.
Also no matter how many Dwarves it actually killed (there were enough survivors to colonise Erebor and the Grey Mountains) one could image a point where the aura of terror it exuded was too much for the Dwarves to resist which might help to account for how it was able to destroy this great kingdom single-handedly.

[Draugohtar]

I struggle to view a 12 feet tall Balrog (with associated flame and shadow) operating as a stealth assassin. This just doesn't resonate with their MO in any version ie the pre-Maiar dragon riders, or revised Maiar (only 7 ever in existence) version.

I do think we have to consider that the Dwarves simply had no potent counter to the Balrog's huge sorcerous power, massive physical strength and capacity to make most opponents flee through sheer intimidation.

With regards to Gandalf, to sum up my earlier position: simply because I can defeat my friend's enemy (even if he can't), does not mean I can defeat my enemy.

That said, uninhibited by human form, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the Istari could single handedly go to war with a Dwarf army. The Balrog has no imposed inhibitions, it is what it is, raw in its power.