Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

This means that ONE Balrog can beat 200 000 dwarves in combat - something I find a bit crazy - and it has some other implications.

I don't think that's a valid interpretation. I have little doubt that a number of that magnitude could destroy a Balrog's physical body, but one must consider that fear factor it must have had, as well as the Dwarves' ignorance of what they were even facing. Not knowing one's enemy is a terrible drawback, and you have to also keep in mind that a large number of Dwarves, certainly at least many hundreds, were driven from Erebor by a single dragon, a creature they did know well.

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

Saruman is stronger than Gandalf (the Grey), as he managed to dominate him and improsion him in Orthanc, as well as being his master etc.

Saruman's ability to imprison Gandalf to my mind is merely indicative of the authority he'd been given as the head of the Order, not necessarily of a superiority of innate power.

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

Alternatively, we can lower the population of Moria to something more easy to handle, like 10 000. And assume the Balrog used a sort of hit-and-run tactics, killing them in small isolated groups.

I think that's reasonable. Moria would hardly have been suited to combat involving hundreds inside the mines anyway; its defenses seem to have been justifiably geared toward repelling invaders. They wouldn't have been prepared for something like the Balrog appearing suddenly inside .

[Draugohtar]

I think you are making a false equivalency.

Being able to defeat the conqueror of a third party, does not automatically make one capable of defeating that third party personally.


For example let's consider a Heavy tank.


Any number of troops with light arms would probably be defeated by a tiny tank crew, equipped as they are with heavy armament (and presumably a huge amount of ammunition.)

However 1 solider with a suitable anti-tank missile has a fair chance of emerging victorious.

That same soldier is going to be utterly vanquished by a relative small number of troops armed with only light weaponry.


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Talking about Balrogs, Gandalf and huge potential Dwarf armies we are ignoring the magic factor.

The fact is that Balrogs are massively sorcerously equipped, being as they are, fallen Maiar. I doubt that there was any Dwarf, or Dwarf cadre even remotely equipped to counter such power.

Consider that the only people we know of, who have been capable of effective combat with Balrogs, prior to Gandalf, were spectacularly powerful Eldar. Even 'run of the mill' first age or related Elves were no match for Balrogs.

A small army of Balrogs could drive off Ungoliant, who in her turn had totally cowed, and albeitly reduced, Morgoth - a Valar.

Further we have little evidence that Dwarf weaponry could even significantly harm a Balrog. Consider that Gandalf was hewing away at the Balrog with Turgon's own sword (a masterpiece of elven craft of a passed age, and magic to boot), and it wasn't exactly making short work of Mr Balrog.

Now Gandalf can counter the Balrog's sorcery, being internally, a Maiar himself. He then can meet it on 'equal' terms and has the right sword for the job.

However in mortal guise Gandalf is indeed going to be arrow or axe fodder for a huge army of Dwarves, and doesn't appear to be equipped with the sort of mass combat magic that could take out a Dwarven army. So just as the soldier with the ATM, he (or Saruman) is going to be in a tight spot faced with such foes.

So there we are:

The Balrog is a tank.

Gandalf is a soldier with an Anti-Tank Missile.

A Dwarf Army is a battalion of light infantry.

Solved :P

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think that's a valid interpretation. I have little doubt that a number of that magnitude could destroy a Balrog's physical body, but one must consider that fear factor it must have had, as well as the Dwarves' ignorance of what they were even facing. Not knowing one's enemy is a terrible drawback, and you have to also keep in mind that a large number of Dwarves, certainly at least many hundreds, were driven from Erebor by a single dragon, a creature they did know well.

Not ENTIRELY convinced by this, although I do see where you are coming from.

It struck me that we dont know if the dwarves at the time of the Balrog's arrival were in good fighting condition - maybe they had few warrioirs and most of them were wimpy mithril craftsmen.

Saruman's ability to imprison Gandalf to my mind is merely indicative of the authority he'd been given as the head of the Order, not necessarily of a superiority of innate power.

I've always understood the book as implying that Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf. Saruman's the top dog etc.

I

think that's reasonable. Moria would hardly have been suited to combat involving hundreds inside the mines anyway; its defenses seem to have been justifiably geared toward repelling invaders. They wouldn't have been prepared for something like the Balrog appearing suddenly inside .

This is a good point. Allthough they should have been able to set up some defenses eventually - maybe destroying soe pillars to bury the Balrog again.

The balrogs ability to "move fast as if winged" or whatever the correct quote in would sure be a big boost for it in hit an run guerilla tactics. Would have been a real nasty year for the dwarves, with the balrog attacking all over the place killing small groups.