Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?

[Juicy-Sweet]

It's quite a gruesome plotline now.

The dwarves desperately try to fight the Balrog - trying to contain it by caving in rooms, closing off sections, luring it near water reservoirs and trying to drown it etc. (The parts visited in LOTR were undamaged, but the fighting probably took place deeper down.). The King sits in the command room getting the MIA list of names every day and making desperate plans.

Another things has dawned on me - there were survivors, but nobody knows it was a Balrog. The elves would surely had recognized it, if the story got around that it was a shadowy-flamy figure that sorta looked like it had wings, but maybe it didnt have them, wielding a whip of fire. I dont find it credible that the dwarves kept the description of the attacker a secret - and i dont find it credible either they forgot it. Its a mayor event in their legends. So I suppose NO SURVIVORS SAW IT. Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them. Maybe the small groups of dwarves sometimes just disappeared without a trace - the balrog could toss them into the wells for instance. The Balrog would want to remain secret, lest the elves would go looking for it. Maybe a few dawrves saw glipses of it and such - but noone got a good look so they could describe it.

It's completely like the 1979 ALIEN movie now - just with a Balrog instead of the alien, Moria indtead of a spaceship (both are confined artificial structures), "someplace deep" instead of an unknown planet as "the place they should not have disturbed".

Except it took a whole year and thousands were killed bit by bit. I imagine the surviving dwarves had sorta strained nerves when they left and one or two had developed a solid paranoia. Yeech.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

It's quite a gruesome plotline now.

The dwarves desperately try to fight the Balrog - trying to contain it by caving in rooms, closing off sections, luring it near water reservoirs and trying to drown it etc. (The parts visited in LOTR were undamaged, but the fighting probably took place deeper down.). The King sits in the command room getting the MIA list of names every day and making desperate plans.

Another things has dawned on me - there were survivors, but nobody knows it was a Balrog. The elves would surely had recognized it, if the story got around that it was a shadowy-flamy figure that sorta looked like it had wings, but maybe it didnt have them, wielding a whip of fire. I dont find it credible that the dwarves kept the description of the attacker a secret - and i dont find it credible either they forgot it. Its a mayor event in their legends. So I suppose NO SURVIVORS SAW IT. Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them. Maybe the small groups of dwarves sometimes just disappeared without a trace - the balrog could toss them into the wells for instance. The Balrog would want to remain secret, lest the elves would go looking for it. Maybe a few dawrves saw glipses of it and such - but noone got a good look so they could describe it.

It's completely like the 1979 ALIEN movie now - just with a Balrog instead of the alien, Moria indtead of a spaceship (both are confined artificial structures), "someplace deep" instead of an unknown planet as "the place they should not have disturbed".

Except it took a whole year and thousands were killed bit by bit. I imagine the surviving dwarves had sorta strained nerves when they left and one or two had developed a solid paranoia. Yeech.

I'd never thought of the loss of Moria this way, but assuming as I generally do that the Balrog didn't have an army with him it does appeal to me. It's an image which I'd never really considered; I mostly just picture Durin VI having an epic duel with the Balrog. But of course I'd never really accounted for the time which passed before the Balrog slew Náin I and the Dwarves finally abandoned Moria. The idea of the Dwarves holding out as this demon stalked them for a year is a satisfyingly harrowing one.
Also no matter how many Dwarves it actually killed (there were enough survivors to colonise Erebor and the Grey Mountains) one could image a point where the aura of terror it exuded was too much for the Dwarves to resist which might help to account for how it was able to destroy this great kingdom single-handedly.

[Draugohtar]

I struggle to view a 12 feet tall Balrog (with associated flame and shadow) operating as a stealth assassin. This just doesn't resonate with their MO in any version ie the pre-Maiar dragon riders, or revised Maiar (only 7 ever in existence) version.

I do think we have to consider that the Dwarves simply had no potent counter to the Balrog's huge sorcerous power, massive physical strength and capacity to make most opponents flee through sheer intimidation.

With regards to Gandalf, to sum up my earlier position: simply because I can defeat my friend's enemy (even if he can't), does not mean I can defeat my enemy.

That said, uninhibited by human form, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the Istari could single handedly go to war with a Dwarf army. The Balrog has no imposed inhibitions, it is what it is, raw in its power.

[Morsul the Dark]

Isn't a Balrog a Maia? I doubt they really tire so lets assume ALL the dwarves did attack the Balrog it's not as if they all attacked at once. just can't be done. A balrog could I think easily take on 10-15 dwarves at a time.

Also, as somene else mentioned the Balrog probably picked off a lt secretly. cause stirs and whispers and a general fear.

[Morthoron]

Did Tolkien ever say there were 200,000 dwarves in Khazad-dum? If so, where precisely? I find the number ridiculously high, perhaps over 10 times the actual number at any given time. The dwarves were never a prolific race to begin with.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A figure of 10,000-20,000 dwarves seems more of a realistic maximum,
not only with slow population increase but supplying them with food, etc.
Rohan itself, in a time at the War of the Ring when they had pretty much recovered from past problems, probably had a population of perhaps 100,000
(assuming a male fighting pop. of about Theoden's 10,000 estimate.
Especially after Hollin wasn't a source of trade there's limited trade potential---
dwarves better love eating mushrooms grown in tunnels (like
in southeast Pa.).

The image of an Alien stalking Moria is not only scary- but could be not
that far from Tolkien's conception.

Of course that does bring up the question of how the balrog organized
his orc/troll forces in Moria later. He seems to have been the generalisimo.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them."


Ah, got it. So it's Alien.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

A figure of 10,000-20,000 dwarves seems more of a realistic maximum,
not only with slow population increase but supplying them with food, etc.
Rohan itself, in a time at the War of the Ring when they had pretty much recovered from past problems, probably had a population of perhaps 100,000
(assuming a male fighting pop. of about Theoden's 10,000 estimate.
Especially after Hollin wasn't a source of trade there's limited trade potential---
dwarves better love eating mushrooms grown in tunnels (like
in southeast Pa.).

The image of an Alien stalking Moria is not only scary- but could be not
that far from Tolkien's conception.

Of course that does bring up the question of how the balrog organized
his orc/troll forces in Moria later. He seems to have been the generalisimo.

I agree, just don't see Moria ever having anything near 200,000 dwarves. Look at Gondolin for example. They had an army of say 13,000. Considering they were elves it would give them a population of around 30,000. Gondolin was one of the great cities of Middle Earth.

From the lack of description as you said the dwarves never had a pitched battle with the Balrog. They probably experienced a sense of dread and were picked off.

We must also accept that enough dwarves left to populate and create Erebor. So after a certain amount of deaths, the dwarves probably decided to escape. The war with Sauron, though brief in the Second Age would have cut numbers back too.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I struggle to view a 12 feet tall Balrog (with associated flame and shadow) operating as a stealth assassin. This just doesn't resonate with their MO in any version ie the pre-Maiar dragon riders, or revised Maiar (only 7 ever in existence) version.

I do think we have to consider that the Dwarves simply had no potent counter to the Balrog's huge sorcerous power, massive physical strength and capacity to make most opponents flee through sheer intimidation.

With regards to Gandalf, to sum up my earlier position: simply because I can defeat my friend's enemy (even if he can't), does not mean I can defeat my enemy.

That said, uninhibited by human form, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the Istari could single handedly go to war with a Dwarf army. The Balrog has no imposed inhibitions, it is what it is, raw in its power.

The logical reason for the "alien" scenario with a stealthy Balrog is this:

Obviously Gandalf has no idea whatsoever there's is a Balrog in Moria. If he knew it was there, he would have picked ANY other route than Moria. Better to walk through Isengard then

This means no elf knew it either - if they did, they would tell Galadrian/Elrond(some other leader, and eventually Elrond would hear about th Balrog and tell Gandalf.

So my assumptions is that if anyone remotely allied with the Elves knew it was a Balrog, the information would have winded up with Gandalf.

We ALSO know that all elves that heard the description of the balrog would know immediately what it was - Legolas reaction in LOTR - I assume as well that even a vague description would make them think it was probably a balrog.

This leaves two possibilities:

EITHER the dwarves saw the balrog, but didnt tell anyone about it, ever. This makes no sense to me, so I dont like this version. They must have wanted to find out what the *** it was, so they could find out how to kill it and get Moria back. So they should have gone around to all available loremasters with their best drawing of it asking "how do we kill this?". And yes, they are hostile with the elves. But I think the possibility of getting an advice like "ah this think dies from garlic" would have made them ask the elves in spite of their enmity.

Or ELSE they didnt see it at all, meaning noone ever figured out what it was and noone could help them.

[Juicy-Sweet]

I googled "Moria population estimate" to see if there was some golden thread out there - but I just found this one, as well as a bunch of REAL places called Moria.

Dunno if there's mentioned a headcount of ANY dwarven city anywhere in Tolkien? The we could compare and guess a bit.

Otherwise I suppose the 10 000 estimate which also is pretty random is orthodoxy now - since we are page 1 in google

Another thought in why it might have been easy for the Balrog.

Moria must have had a heavy bueareaycracy + safety measures for two reasons:

Mines always need to control the miners for theft. Seing Moria is mining the priciest of all things to mine, mithril, they must have had extensive rules and laws for who were allowed to mine where, to control if noone was cheating.

Due to them only having few exits, they are very vulnerable to being besieged. It means they must have had huge food supplies + water supplies + heavy safety measures to prevent sabotage.

So I imagine Moria as a place with most people being informed only on a "need to know basis", with a lot of identity paper ("Sir this is a class B mithril mine. We need to know you belong here.") and security clearing etc - a slow inefficient bureaucracy.

Meaning they sucked at adapting their defenses from armies coming from the outside to an unknown enemy from the inside. And their forces were hampered by red tape when they wanted to pass through a mithril mine to blow up the section they thought the balrog was in. etc.

[Sarumian]

I think the comparison with Alien is excellent: most of dwarves had probably never seen their Bane before until Gimli could and those who had got such a chance were dead next moment. But unlike Alien, Balrog had advantages - weapons of mass destruction. He could make ceilings fall with his spells and burn air in mines, suffocating dwarves.

[Bêthberry]

I have just a tiny little question to ask.

What does this have to do with the Books? There seems to be very little discussion of Tolkien's actual texts.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

Obviously Gandalf has no idea whatsoever there's is a Balrog in Moria. If he knew it was there, he would have picked ANY other route than Moria. Better to walk through Isengard then

We ALSO know that all elves that heard the description of the balrog would know immediately what it was - Legolas reaction in LOTR - I assume as well that even a vague description would make them think it was probably a balrog.

These might be useful - I was reading the Moria chapter the other day to look up a rare example of using a 'spell' so it's fresh in the mind...

Legolas would know what a Balrog was from tales of the destruction of Gondolin, he wouldn't need to see one. But in any case, I think that some in Middle-earth knew there was something lurking in Moria, and may have even known what it was. Gimli, I think, knew exactly what Durin's Bane was:

Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

Aragorn sounds like he might know what lurks in there as he directs these words to Gandalf specifically:

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!'

As for Gandalf, he knows something is in there but doesn't know what exactly it is. He just knows there are dark, Nidhoggr-esque things under the mountains. He maybe hopes the Watcher is it, especially after they read the book of Mazarbul.

'I do not know,' answered Gandalf; 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the
lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.

And since the dwarves fled, no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water--or in a shadow of fear.'

even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.

But the main one that shows Gandalf is not aware of a Balrog (and showing how stressed he is at this point as there cannot be very many threats in Middle-earth that would pose that particular type and level of threat, yet he is still befuddled):

'As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghash: that is "fire". Then something came into the chamber--I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command.

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by Juicy-Sweet

The logical reason for the "alien" scenario with a stealthy Balrog is this:

Obviously Gandalf has no idea whatsoever there's is a Balrog in Moria. If he knew it was there, he would have picked ANY other route than Moria. Better to walk through Isengard then

This means no elf knew it either - if they did, they would tell Galadrian/Elrond(some other leader, and eventually Elrond would hear about th Balrog and tell Gandalf.

So my assumptions is that if anyone remotely allied with the Elves knew it was a Balrog, the information would have winded up with Gandalf.

We ALSO know that all elves that heard the description of the balrog would know immediately what it was - Legolas reaction in LOTR - I assume as well that even a vague description would make them think it was probably a balrog.

The elves were aware of Durin's Bane the 'Nameless Terror' as was Gandalf and Aragorn and others of the 'Wise.' The lack of specifics is easily accounted for given the poor state of lore amonst most of the peoples by this stage of Middle Earth's history. The Balrog was cloaked in fire and shadow, and the ancient world was not short of sorcerous big bad monsters: Werewolves, Vampires, Flightless Dragons etc. Each might comfortably (depending on their true nature) comfortably outclass any dwarf force of that age. Presumably there would be very few survivors of any confrontation or even rough proximity. Thus we're left with poor informed witnesses who were far enough away to escape. I don't think any automatic ID on a balrog is assured at all.

This leaves two possibilities:

EITHER the dwarves saw the balrog, but didnt tell anyone about it, ever. This makes no sense to me, so I dont like this version. They must have wanted to find out what the *** it was, so they could find out how to kill it and get Moria back. So they should have gone around to all available loremasters with their best drawing of it asking "how do we kill this?". And yes, they are hostile with the elves. But I think the possibility of getting an advice like "ah this think dies from garlic" would have made them ask the elves in spite of their enmity.

Or ELSE they didnt see it at all, meaning noone ever figured out what it was and noone could help them.

The hostility runs both ways (e.g. Ban on Dwarves in Lorien), so lines of communication are pretty weak at best. Plus word had reached the wise, it simply was clearly insufficiently informed or detailed to allow for an ID.

You're assuming the lore-less could simply get a good description on a Balrog, it's so sorcerously potent, and able to cloak itself in fire and shadow, any ID would very probably just a generic big bad evil.


---

But all of this aside, it's inconcievable that the utterly warlike fire Maiar who could chase off Ungoliant (a big bad on a power scale to rival a Valar), would take to sneaking around.

Plus let's not forget that the earlier people's of Middle Earth were vastly more powerful than subsequent generations.

A Third Age Dwarf army/population is really not all that puissant in comparison to any host assembled in the First, and the Dwarves have never even been remotely on the same power level as the Eldar.

Balrogs who could plough their way through hosts of the Eldar really wouldn't even notice 10/20,000 Dwarves.

[Rhod the Red]

Well we have no confirmation of him battling lots all at once or small numbers. More likely than not only small numbers had the courage to try to buy time for the rest to escape.

Their weapons.....proved ineffective.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

The elves were aware of Durin's Bane the 'Nameless Terror' as was Gandalf and Aragorn and others of the 'Wise.' The lack of specifics is easily accounted for given the poor state of lore amonst most of the peoples by this stage of Middle Earth's history. The Balrog was cloaked in fire and shadow, and the ancient world was not short of sorcerous big bad monsters: Werewolves, Vampires, Flightless Dragons etc. Each might comfortably (depending on their true nature) comfortably outclass any dwarf force of that age. Presumably there would be very few survivors of any confrontation or even rough proximity. Thus we're left with poor informed witnesses who were far enough away to escape. I don't think any automatic ID on a balrog is assured at all.





The hostility runs both ways (e.g. Ban on Dwarves in Lorien), so lines of communication are pretty weak at best. Plus word had reached the wise, it simply was clearly insufficiently informed or detailed to allow for an ID.

You're assuming the lore-less could simply get a good description on a Balrog, it's so sorcerously potent, and able to cloak itself in fire and shadow, any ID would very probably just a generic big bad evil.


---

But all of this aside, it's inconcievable that the utterly warlike fire Maiar who could chase off Ungoliant (a big bad on a power scale to rival a Valar), would take to sneaking around.

Plus let's not forget that the earlier people's of Middle Earth were vastly more powerful than subsequent generations.

A Third Age Dwarf army/population is really not all that puissant in comparison to any host assembled in the First, and the Dwarves have never even been remotely on the same power level as the Eldar.

Balrogs who could plough their way through hosts of the Eldar really wouldn't even notice 10/20,000 Dwarves.

Where did you get the idea that Balrogs could plough their way thoruhg a host of the Eldar in the first age?

The only creatures that had such power were the flying dragons, Glaurung and Carcharoth. The Balrogs were captains, but they usually the more powerful elven lords were enough to at least stall one.

We have seen the Balrogs sneak around plenty of times. The Balrog of Moria was only alive, because he managed to sneak under the earth. When Morgoth was first overthrown once more the Balrogs snuck in the dungeons. There appears to be some cowardice when Gothmog is charged with capturing Hurin as well. Instead of go and capture him personally he sends his troll guard and only approaches when Hurin is restained.

A Balrog was strong, but an army of 10,000 dwarves would be too great for him.

If the elves had know there was a Balrog there then I am sure they may have done something about it. Glorfindel was already a balrog slayer and now he returned more powerful.

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Where did you get the idea that Balrogs could plough their way thoruhg a host of the Eldar in the first age?

Well let's see:

Could any host of elves, men or Dwarves even begin to combat Ungoliant? The answer would appear to be a resounding no. However a relatively small number (presumably) of Balrogs can drive her off (when Melkor himself cannot?) This puts them on an incredible power level.

With regards to their direct interaction with the Eldar, in general only the most puissant of the Eldar could meet them in single combat, and their defeat generally claimed the lives of those same individuals. Their like (with a few exceptions ie Galadriel) is no longer in Middle Earth. Only 3? Individuals we know of have ever defeated a Balrog. Seeing as Balrogs ie siege of Gondolin tend to lead from the front, it suggests that they were simply ploughing through all but the mightiest of the Eldar.

The very presence of the Balrog unmans both Legolas and Gimli.

It is probable, as per the texts, that the weapons of the Dwarves of the Third Age simply wouldn't have any potency against a Balrog. Whilst not all Balrogs would appear to be created equal, they can (e.g. Gothmog) be on a power scale to rival Sauron. Do we think 20,000 dwarves could defeat Sauron? It was luck and no ordinary sword which could even do Sauron the least of hurts.

The only creatures that had such power were the flying dragons, Glaurung and Carcharoth. The Balrogs were captains, but they usually the more powerful elven lords were enough to at least stall one.

Dragons are not on a greater power scale that Balrogs. There's an old thread on these forums talking about this point also. Remember that a man killed Glaurung, his own father having been easily mastered by Gothmog in single combat.

We have seen the Balrogs sneak around plenty of times. The Balrog of Moria was only alive, because he managed to sneak under the earth. When Morgoth was first overthrown once more the Balrogs snuck in the dungeons. There appears to be some cowardice when Gothmog is charged with capturing Hurin as well. Instead of go and capture him personally he sends his troll guard and only approaches when Hurin is restained.

I think any man would be below the general notice of a Balrog in battle. They go into hiding because their master is overthrown by the Valar, not men or elves. The Balrog would be aware there could be powers in Middle Earth to rival it, it is alone and quite content where it is. It would be sheer stupidity to wander out and invite attention from the wise.

A Balrog was strong, but an army of 10,000 dwarves would be too great for him.

If the elves had know there was a Balrog there then I am sure they may have done something about it. Glorfindel was already a balrog slayer and now he returned more powerful.

I totally disagree, but that's ok. But a balrog is not a sneaky Alien substitute. An army of 10,000 dwarves who are mostly reduced to gibbering wrecks, with useless weapons doesn't seem a terrible opponent for a First Age Fire Maia.

The wise DID know there was a big bad monster in Moria, they chose to leave it alone. No doubt understanding that they would be facing that might be more than their equal. As for Glorfindel, even returned he's still no match for say Feanor, and Feanor (the most powerful Elf who has ever lived) was outmatched by Balrogs ultimately.