A question about class in Middle Earth

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Love the way that all the non-Brits are arguing about class but agreeing that we are obsessed about it

Ah, there's that legendary British understatement we've all come to know and love.

Actually, if you look carefully I believe only one poster linked Brits exclusively to class obsession (and everyone else disagreed to such exclusivity, be they Euros or Yanks); but I think that the American version of the class divide was more racial in tenor, or due to the point of national origin. My ancestors being Italian and Irish were certainly met with scorn by those WASP's (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) who could recall their descent in bardic cadence from the first settlers off the Mayflower or the veterans of the Revolutionary War. I have a Help Wanted sign dated to the 1850's that carries the disclaimer: No Irish Need Apply.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I just think that the great social mobility of the last century provided a rich seam for drama and humour which many writers and film makers have exploited. And the social mobility is reflected in LOTR particularly of Tolkien's works. Think of Faramir talking about Gondor and Rohan and Sam rising to be Mayor and his daughter marrying the Thain's son.

Yes, Samwise, the gardener who made good; of course, it didin't hurt that he was a war hero (when the Hobbits finally learned there was indeed a war and other civilizations existing beyond their borders), and that his best friends were young scions of the 'great houses' of the Shire, and who eventually became Thain Peregrin and Meriadoc, Master of Buckland (not to mention having King Elessar's ear and a daughter serving as the Queen's Maid of Honor). Just your average Joe fortunate enough not to be the apprentice to Ted Sandyman's dear ol' dad.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

To get back to Tolkien, there is a clear hierachy between the kindred of the Elves, and with Men there is an even more refined hierachy - the purer Numenoreans being a cut above even within the superior realm of Gondor. With the Dwarves the line of Durin is top and even the Orcs make distinctions from the Uruk-hai down to the snufflers. It is clearly a very hierachical world from the Valar down... but that is hardly suprising for a mythology which concern generally the great and the good (and the great at being bad), the powers of the world not the "poor ****** infantry".

But how many epics, from Homer's Iliad to Malory's Mort d'Arthur to Tolstoy's War and Peace to Tolkien's LotR dealt with anyone but the high and mighty (or at least comfortably well off)? Grunts are wiped out at Gallipoli or the Somme or the day after Christmas in All's Quiet on the Western Front. They smell horrid, can't articulate well and come home to find disenchantment, unemployment and life on the dole. That's John Steinbeck or Hemingway, not Tolkien.

I think you're right about the Gondorion penchant to trace their lineage to Numenor (and the bluer the blood, the better), and I agree with your views on hierarchical stratification up to a point; however, the original question concerned a 'class divide' among different races, and although elements of that occurred in previous ages (as I mentioned previously, the vassalage of the Edain to the Noldor), my point was that such a divide from a racial standpoint is not readily discernible in the 3rd Age. There was far too much separation (or self-imposed segregation, if you prefer) for such a statement to be plausible.