A question about class in Middle Earth

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.

The correct wording of the quote is "I have not brought you hither to be instructed by you...", and I am not quite sure if what you're quoting is merely obscurant or meant to be insulting (one of the problems with speaking obtusely).

Also, I must say your brief and somewhat vague replies are not the least constructive for the continuance of this dialogue. Please try to be a bit more expansive, and then perhaps we can pick up on this thread's derailed train of thought, which seemingly never made it to the station at its scheduled time.

[Nerwen]

Mansun, what point are you trying to make with that quote?

At most it means that Saruman had the idea that he and his fellow–Maiar might become a ruling class. That wasn't the actual situation.

Besides, this is Saruman we're talking about. He may not have been sincere, but rather planning to enlist Gandalf's aid, then stab him in the back.

[Gwathagor]

Mansun's funny.

[Nerwen]

Well, I am assuming that the quote isn't meant to be directed at anyone.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The correct wording of the quote is "I have not brought you hither to be instructed by you...", and I am not quite sure if what you're quoting is merely obscurant or meant to be insulting (one of the problems with speaking obtusely).

Also, I must say your brief and somewhat vague replies are not the least constructive for the continuance of this dialogue. Please try to be a bit more expansive, and then perhaps we can pick up on this thread's derailed train of thought, which seemingly never made it to the station at its scheduled time.

I sincerely apologise for using here instead of hither. Does that comfort you, Morthoron (this name sounds all too much like foul Mouth of Sauron)?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, I am assuming that the quote isn't meant to be directed at anyone.

Saruman was the ultimate elitest loremaster in Middle Earth, with this theme being even more prevalent in the film version. Though, of course, this was almost totally due to his obssession with power, not social class.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I sincerely apologise for using here instead of hither. Does that comfort you, Morthoron (this name sounds all too much like foul Mouth of Sauron)?

I would explain the difference between a quote and a paraphrase, but it would obviously be lost on you. As far as my online tag, it is Sindarin, and your mention of it has nothing to do with the discussion, or more aptly, the lack thereof.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman was the ultimate elitest loremaster in Middle Earth, with this theme being even more prevalent in the film version. Though, of course, this was almost totally due to his obssession with power, not social class.

Again, vague, obtuse and not to the point.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Again, vague, obtuse and not to the point.

From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There are at least two skwerlz watching this thread closely - one for the negative chatting and personal remarks that are being posted, another for the off-topic discussion of issues that are not Tolkien-related. Please return to the topic of the thread - that includes the thread starter, who presumably asked the question because he would like to have it discussed. Quotes that are used in an insulting manner are just as out of place on a public post as one's own words. If you object to remarks that someone else made on a personal basis (as opposed to the treatment of the subject at hand), take it to PM please.

Off-topic posts may be deleted or edited without warning.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Mansun's funny.

You're welcome, Gwathagor.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Love the way that all the non-Brits are arguing about class but agreeing that we are obsessed about it . I just think that the great social mobility of the last century provided a rich seam for drama and humour which many writers and film makers have exploited. And the social mobility is reflected in LOTR particularly of Tolkien's works. Think of Faramir talking about Gondor and Rohan and Sam rising to be Mayor and his daughter marrying the Thain's son.

The Shire was changing just as England was. It is a very different place to when (at about the time of Tolkien's birth) that one of my great grandmothers was disowned by her family for marrying into trade and caused scandal by riding a bicycle. The former seems just as ludicrous as the latter now.

Another great-grandmother was an illiterate Irish immigrant so I owe my existance to a degree of social mobility! Certainly my parents had very different backgrounds - my father's feet are crumpled because his widowed mother couldn't afford shoes for him as soon as he needed them, but at least at the time it was possible for a poor boy with a good brain to get an education and a scholarship to university which had a ripple effect throughout the rest of his family.

If there are three classes in Britain now I would say they are those who don't work, those who work and those who don't need to work. The type of work people do is rather more significant these days than accent or the words you use for rooms or meals. And I have to say that I notice plenty of "class" distinction in American programmes and books - anything set in New York seems chocabloc with it for starters, let alone Desperate Housewives, Shark, The Riches, all those films where the girl from the trailer park fights it out with the rich girl to be Prom queen or whatever... And the most class conscious film I ever saw was French (Priez pour Nous) but heigh ho... you keep you national stereotypes and we'll keep ours

To get back to Tolkien, there is a clear hierachy between the kindred of the Elves, and with Men there is an even more refined hierachy - the purer Numenoreans being a cut above even within the superior realm of Gondor. With the Dwarves the line of Durin is top and even the Orcs make distinctions from the Uruk-hai down to the snufflers. It is clearly a very hierachical world from the Valar down... but that is hardly suprising for a mythology which concern generally the great and the good (and the great at being bad), the powers of the world not the "poor ****** infantry".

So having had the first version of this lost in a computer crash,I shall post and wait for the gauntlet... (fish knives at dawn no doubt)....

Well written, Mithalwen.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

There are at least two skwerlz watching this thread closely - one for the negative chatting and personal remarks that are being posted, another for the off-topic discussion of issues that are not Tolkien-related. Please return to the topic of the thread - that includes the thread starter, who presumably asked the question because he would like to have it discussed. Quotes that are used in an insulting manner are just as out of place on a public post as one's own words. If you object to remarks that someone else made on a personal basis (as opposed to the treatment of the subject at hand), take it to PM please.

Off-topic posts may be deleted or edited without warning.

From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.