A question about class in Middle Earth

[Bêthberry]

Dragging this back to Tolkien . . .

There are kings among several of the races in Middle-earth, men, elves and dwarves. There are also hereditary positions, such as Gondor's Stewards. There are many references to noble blood, with the idea that the highest form of behaviour is shown by those with such blood. Gondor's ruling class seems mighty concerned with its Numenorean heritage, as if that gave them some sort of special dispensation. Both Rohan and Gondor have formal burial grounds for their kings/stewards, but we don't hear (as I recall) much about where the ordinary folks are buried. Aragorn must earn his throne, but he is still a king in waiting and his son--right of primogeniture--inherits his throne. (We aren't even ever told the name of his daughter.)

Contrasted with this pervasive backdrop are the Hobbits, who might not have a king but they do have, as Morthoron points out, a class society, as evidenced in the Gamgees and the Tooks/Brandybucks and Sam's term of address for Frodo. Of course, the fact that Sam becomes mayor many times over adds a suggestion that the class society which is otherwise displayed all over Middle-earth will have some mobility in the 4th Age, yet even there we have the paternalism of the King decreeing who shall have access to the Shire.

There is much niggling over class in Middle-earth, as there is over many of Tolkien's themes.

EDIT: I rather like Morthoron's patrician to describe the sense of class in LotR.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Dragging this back to Tolkien . . .

A good idea.

I think - and all you cognoscenti should teach me about this if I'm wrong - that Tolkien was an aristocrat. And there being a possibility of being an aristocracy requires a class society to begin with...

One may say that he wrote the legendarium of the old world which was not his contemporary world and the society he portrays can be explained from that angle.

But yet I feel it was a world not totally unattractive to him. Like the ideas Plato brings forwards with Socrates as his mouthpiece in his dialogues: they were not things he thought were the final truth but nevertheless they were not totally against his own position...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Dragging this back to Tolkien . . . I rather like Morthoron's patrician to describe the sense of class in LotR.

Interestingly enough, Smeagol's Stoor line that remigrated from the area of the Angle and settled back in the Vales of Anduin was matriarchal (or at least, that's the assumption based on the gleanings we get from Tolkien), one of the few instances (Haleth and perhaps Galadriel -- being equipollent with Celeborn -- being others) where strong female leaders were present. I suppose you could add the ruling queens of Numenor before Ar-Pharazon usurped the crown and forced marriage upon the last presumptive queen, Miriel. Sadly, thereafter primogeniture seems to have been the rule in Gondor among the kings and ruling stewards (as you perceptively stated, the daughters of Elessar didn't even warrant a mention).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly enough, Smeagol's Stoor line that remigrated from the area of the Angle and settled back in the Vales of Anduin was matriarchal (or at least, that's the assumption based on the gleanings we get from Tolkien), one of the few instances (Haleth and perhaps Galadriel -- being equipollent with Celeborn -- being others) where strong female leaders were present. I suppose you could add the ruling queens of Numenor before Ar-Pharazon usurped the crown and forced marriage upon the last presumptive queen, Miriel. Sadly, thereafter primogeniture seems to have been the rule in Gondor among the kings and ruling stewards (as you perceptively stated, the daughters of Elessar didn't even warrant a mention).

Well now, I am glad you did not assume I was referring to Coleridge's definition of patrician.

Even more interesting is the fact that, if I recall correctly, the only pure incidence of shunning in LotR is that of Smeagol by his matriarchal clan, although the parochialism of the hobbits suggest all hobbits harbour that potential. Didn't the ruling queens of Numenor rule only because they lacked male siblings?

But as I mentioned, Elessar's decree about limiting access to the Shire suggests at least a paternalism, as if the hobbits were regarded as children, as they didn't labour for Gondor.

Of course, we don't know who worked the tobacco fields.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mind if just drag this thread back to the original topic for a moment? Mansun, you didn't simply ask whether social classes existed in M-E, you said:

I must apologise to Mansun, as I assumed his use of between represented the common confusion of between and among, but Nerwen's post suggests that between is indeed the operant word.

Originally Posted by [QUOTE=Nerwen

Now, that question is answered pretty comprehensively in the next post. However, I'm just curious about what made you think of it to begin with.

Because, you see, societies with species-based class-systems do crop up in speculative fiction, I can't recall any sign of that in Middle-earth (apart from the example Morthoron gives). Or have you seen something I've missed/

Did Dwarves ever hold fealty to the Elves? I had always assumed they were thoroughly independent. Certainly the Appendix "Durin's Folk" speaks only of the awakening of Durin's people and their coming to Azanulbizar, and the pure line of the dwarven monarchy.

The views of Gandalf on Hobbits from the Shire in general, and the reluctance of the Elves to welcome other races within their realm, suggested some evidence of a class divide in Middle Earth. Even Rohan was seen as a poorer and less mighty a country than it's neighbour, Gondor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The views of Gandalf on Hobbits from the Shire in general, and the reluctance of the Elves to welcome other races within their realm, suggested some evidence of a class divide in Middle Earth. Even Rohan was seen as a poorer and less mighty a country than it's neighbour, Gondor.

Class has nothing to do with what you are talking about in most cases.

Gandalf can be condescending, patrician or elitist to anyone he chooses, Mansun. He is neither a different class, nor a different race, he is an elemental, angelic being in a humanoid form (a Maia).

Again, with Elves there may be views of a racial (or genus) superiority, but it is not a matter of class, and the reasons they no longer have commerce with other races does not necessarily impute they feel racially superior. The elves were withdrawing from the world (from the Now or Present you might say), and retreating into the Past Perfect. With the aid of the Elven Rings they created artifical paradises at Rivendell and Lothlorien (but let it be said that the Last Homely House always welcomed wayfarers of good will if they could find the correct paths). The Silvan Elves under Thranduil traded regularly with the men of Laketown, and there was no imputation of superiority (they even aided Laketown when it was destroyed by Smaug).

Regarding Gondor and Rohan, there was originally a vow of vassalage between the leaders of both lands (the Oath Of Eorl), but almost all the actual fealty and bonds of vassalage had long since been suspended by the time of the War of the Ring. Did Gondorions feel superior to the Rohirrim? Again, it would not be a 'class-centric' view, but rather a national egoism or racial pride (of Numenor), and except for some disparaging remarks by Denethor (who was rather disparaging to everyone, even his own son), there is no evidence of it among other Gondorions toward the Rohirrim in the books.

The closest one gets to actual class warfare or animosity is between the Dunlenders and the Rohirrim (rather like the oppressed Celts against the Romano-Britons, or the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans). Because we know far more about the Shire than any other realm, we have a fairly good idea of society and class structure among the Hobbits (the Victorian or Edwardian relationship between Sam and Frodo being the most pronounced), the views of Hobbiton regarding the queer folk of The Marish, and the Squires of the Brandybucks and Tooks.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Did Dwarves ever hold fealty to the Elves? I had always assumed they were thoroughly independent. Certainly the Appendix "Durin's Folk" speaks only of the awakening of Durin's people and their coming to Azanulbizar, and the pure line of the dwarven monarchy.

No, I can't recall any such bonds of fealty. The Elves and the Dwarves were always distinct and separate (sometimes malevolently so), even when they had great friendship such as arose between Hollin and Moria.

[Nerwen]

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

[Lalaith]

Yes, I agree - for the Rohirrim to look down on the Dunlendings, or for the Elves to look down on Men, has nothing to do with class and everything to do with cultural/racial prejudices...
Hobbit society seems to me to be a slightly more egalitarian version of the class systems of early 20th century rural England.

Elrond and his family, and Galadriel and her family, were presumably considered 'grander' than the ordinary elves who populated Rivendell and Lorien. I also get the feeling that the Calaquendi looked down on the Moriquendi and that the folk of Thranduil were a bit more rustic and less grand than the Galadhrim or the cosmopolitans of Rivendell.

Gondorian society was more class-ridden, I feel, than that of Rohan. The Anglo-Saxons were much more egalitarian than the Normans that conquered them, and I think there is a correlation.

Tolkien himself was certainly not an aristocrat. His father was a bank manager (middle-middle) and his grandparents were shopkeepers (lower-middle).
Tolkien himself though, as an academic, would qualify as upper-middle, so there's a bit of British social mobility for you...

(PS - Remains of the Day was actually written by a Japanese author, Kazuo Ishiguro....and if you want really complex class systems, all you have to do is read To Kill a Mockingbird....small town Alabama....)

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.