A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 07-22-2009, 01:33 PM

As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material.

Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents.

Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'.

Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.

07-22-2009, 01:33 PM	#29
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material. Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents. Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'. Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.