A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 07-23-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

gondowe · 07-23-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

Yes, yes, Indis is later than the Lammas, what I wanted to mean is that we have both informations.

Greetings

Aran e-Godhellim · 07-23-2009, 05:18 PM

I think the line about Eöl is the most devastating to the theory of Thingol being one of the firstborn. I can't reconcile them at all, and thus I must say that Thingol was of the later generations.

gondowe · 06-10-2010, 04:34 AM

Hello everybody, what about you fellows?
Since my mother dies on 30th January (i hope she are with Morwen, she was Eledhwen too), I did not wrote here, but in February I received the last Parma Eldalamberon, and with the firs part of the Tengwesta, The Descent of Tonges, i made an Appendix new combining this with the text of the Essecenta and other language texts like the ancient Lammas and Of Dwarves and Men.

And one thing brouth me to other and I introduced a change (minor in the context, but important). For me now re-reading the comments of CT, Eöl is not of the kin of Thingol. I think (correct me please) the last annotation of the professor is that Eöl was of the Teleri of the Hithaeglir, and the alussion that the relationship to Thingol would have point, could be a mere good relashionship of live in Nan Elmoth (represented by the gift of Anglachel). of course is an interpretation but for me the internal history is more coherent.

What do you think?

Greetings

gondowe · 06-13-2010, 04:59 AM

Hello again, connecting with the post above, I want to show you the last structure of the texts, naturally is a traduction from my "original" in spanish.

Translations from the Elvish Vol.1

Silmarillion

Prologue (by me)

Note on pronunciation.
Note on the origins of the texts.

Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur

Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies

Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils

. 1 Of the Beginning of Time
. 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
-Of Aulë and the Dwarves
-Of the Ents and Eagles
. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
-Of the awakening of the Elves
-Of the Chaining of Melkor
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor
. 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
-Of the Orkor
. 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
-Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna
-Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
. 13 Of Dwarves
. 14 Of the Sindar
-Of the building of Menegroth
-Of the coming of Denethor
-Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand
. 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 16 Of Men
. 17 Of the return of the Noldor
-Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath
-Of Fingon and Maedhros
. 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin
. 19 Of the Siege of Angband
-Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb
. 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms
-Of the dwellings of the Eldar
. 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin
. 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
-Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
-Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
. 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
-Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach
-Of the Death of Fingolfin
-Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor
-Of the Swarthy Men
. 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel
-Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien
-Of the Quest of the Silmaril
-Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
-Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos
. 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
-Of the Union of Maedhros
-Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
. 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless
. 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen
. 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath
-Of the Second Kin-slaying
. 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
. 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star
-Of the Third Kin-slaying
. 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
-Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
-Of the Passing of the Elves
-The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Appendix

A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi
B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR
-Of naming
-Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa
-Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos
-The Converse of Manwë and Eru
-Of the severance of marriage
-This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel"
C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues
-Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues
-The division of Tongues
-Of the speech of Dwarves
-Of the Atani and their tongues
-Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts)
-Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves.
-The Clan-names
-The names of the descendants of Finwë
-Elvish names for Men
-Elvish names for the Dwarves
-Elvish names for the Orcs
-Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language"
-Note on the "Language of the Valar"
-Dangweth pengolodh
-Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion)
D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
-The Tale of Adanel
E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years.

Genealogies

Maps

Translations from the Elvish Vol.2

Atanatarion

ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men

Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian
1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian
2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy
3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape
4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien
5 Of Beren before Thingol
6 Of Beren in Nargothrond
7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron
8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath
9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond
10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron
11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin
12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth
14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril
15 Of the Escape from Angband
16 Of the Wolf-hunt
17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos
-The choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
-Prologue
. Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
Narn i Chîn Húrin
1 The Childhood of Túrin
2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears
3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
4 The Departure of Túrin
5 Túrin in Doriath
6 Túrin among the Outlaws
7 Of Mîm the Dwarf
8 The Land of Bow and Helm
9 The Death of Beleg
10 Faelivrin
11 Túrin in Nargothrond
12 The Fall of Nargothrond
13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil
15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
16 Niënor in Brethil
17 The Coming of Glaurung
18 The Death of Glaurung
19 The Death of Túrin
The Wanderings of Húrin
-The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin
-The Shadow falls on Brethil
-Húrin in Nargothrond
-Húrin in Doriath

Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl

1 The birth and fostering of Tuor
2 The call of Ulmo
3 The arriving at Vinyamar
4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
5 Voronwë
6 The quest of Gondolin
7 The hidden pass
8 The arriving at Gondolin
9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
10 The Treason of Maeglin
11 The Fall of Gondolin
12 The Flight of the exiles
13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen
14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil
15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying
16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star

Genealogies

Map

Translations from the Elvish Vol.3

The Second and Third Ages

First Part
The Second Age

I
Númenor

Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor
Epilogue

Appendix
1 A description of the Island of Númenor
2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife
3 The line of Elros

II
Middle Earth

Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age
Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans
Of the return of Sauron
Of Galadriel and Celeborn
Of the Rings of Power
Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion
Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men
Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor
Of the last alliance of Elves and Men

Appendix
The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Second Part
The Third Age

Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age
-Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain
-Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion
-Of the Stewards
-The Oath of Cirion and Eorl
Of the Folk of Durin
Of the Eldar in the Third Age
Of the Istari
Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men
Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel
Appendix
1 The Heirs of Elendil
2 The Kings of the March
3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age
4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age.

Third Part
General Notes

I Of Aman
-Aman and Mortal men
II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death
III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures
IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien
V Of Amroth and Nimrodel
VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló
VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur
VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain
IX Of the origins of the Istari
X Of the Elessar
XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath
-The faithful stone
-Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath
XII Of the Palantiri
XIII Of the Quest of Erebor
XIV Of the Hunt for the Ring
-Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
XV Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen

Fourth Part
General guide of names

Maps

Greetings.

Findegil · 08-30-2010, 09:37 AM

Nice to hear you are still active, Gondowe.

Sorry that we can not say the same about our own project.

Concerning the contents of your projected books:
What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included.

Anyway, what I observed also is that you would try to bring both versions of the big tales: a short one in the body of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' and an extanded one in the collection of the 'Atanatarion'.

Do you not fear that tahs might lead to a big deal of repeatition of one and the same text in all the places were the full versions of th ebig tales break off?

Respectfuly
Findegil

Aiwendil · 08-30-2010, 03:16 PM

Good to see both of you around! I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, Gondowe, and I wish you the best.

I'm hoping to have some time to devote to getting our project moving again in the near future (within the next month or so). If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it!

06-10-2010, 04:34 AM	#4
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	An ampliation with an Appendix and other things Hello everybody, what about you fellows? Since my mother dies on 30th January (i hope she are with Morwen, she was Eledhwen too), I did not wrote here, but in February I received the last Parma Eldalamberon, and with the firs part of the Tengwesta, The Descent of Tonges, i made an Appendix new combining this with the text of the Essecenta and other language texts like the ancient Lammas and Of Dwarves and Men. And one thing brouth me to other and I introduced a change (minor in the context, but important). For me now re-reading the comments of CT, Eöl is not of the kin of Thingol. I think (correct me please) the last annotation of the professor is that Eöl was of the Teleri of the Hithaeglir, and the alussion that the relationship to Thingol would have point, could be a mere good relashionship of live in Nan Elmoth (represented by the gift of Anglachel). of course is an interpretation but for me the internal history is more coherent. What do you think? Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 06-13-2010 at 07:58 AM.

06-13-2010, 04:59 AM	#5
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	Hello again, connecting with the post above, I want to show you the last structure of the texts, naturally is a traduction from my "original" in spanish. Translations from the Elvish Vol.1 Silmarillion Prologue (by me) Note on pronunciation. Note on the origins of the texts. Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar . Of the Valar . Of the Maiar . Of the Enemies Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils . 1 Of the Beginning of Time . 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees -Of Aulë and the Dwarves -Of the Ents and Eagles . 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor -Of the awakening of the Elves -Of the Chaining of Melkor . 4 Of Thingol and Melian . 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie . 6 Of Finwë and Míriel . 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor . 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor . 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor . 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils . 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel -Of the Orkor . 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor -Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna -Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor . 13 Of Dwarves . 14 Of the Sindar -Of the building of Menegroth -Of the coming of Denethor -Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand . 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor . 16 Of Men . 17 Of the return of the Noldor -Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath -Of Fingon and Maedhros . 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin . 19 Of the Siege of Angband -Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb . 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms -Of the dwellings of the Eldar . 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin . 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin . 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand -Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar -Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain . 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin -Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach -Of the Death of Fingolfin -Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor -Of the Swarthy Men . 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel -Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien -Of the Quest of the Silmaril -Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth -Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos . 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad -Of the Union of Maedhros -Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad . 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless . 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen . 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath -Of the Second Kin-slaying . 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin . 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star -Of the Third Kin-slaying . 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath -Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons -Of the Passing of the Elves -The Second Prophecy of Mandos Appendix A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR -Of naming -Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa -Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos -The Converse of Manwë and Eru -Of the severance of marriage -This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel" C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues -Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues -The division of Tongues -Of the speech of Dwarves -Of the Atani and their tongues -Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts) -Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves. -The Clan-names -The names of the descendants of Finwë -Elvish names for Men -Elvish names for the Dwarves -Elvish names for the Orcs -Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language" -Note on the "Language of the Valar" -Dangweth pengolodh -Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion) D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth -The Tale of Adanel E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years. Genealogies Maps Translations from the Elvish Vol.2 Atanatarion ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian 1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian 2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy 3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape 4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien 5 Of Beren before Thingol 6 Of Beren in Nargothrond 7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron 8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath 9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond 10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron 11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin 12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband 13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth 14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril 15 Of the Escape from Angband 16 Of the Wolf-hunt 17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos -The choices of Lúthien Narn e·mbar Hador -Prologue . Narn e·’Rach Morgoth Narn i Chîn Húrin 1 The Childhood of Túrin 2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears 3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth 4 The Departure of Túrin 5 Túrin in Doriath 6 Túrin among the Outlaws 7 Of Mîm the Dwarf 8 The Land of Bow and Helm 9 The Death of Beleg 10 Faelivrin 11 Túrin in Nargothrond 12 The Fall of Nargothrond 13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin 14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil 15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond 16 Niënor in Brethil 17 The Coming of Glaurung 18 The Death of Glaurung 19 The Death of Túrin The Wanderings of Húrin -The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin -The Shadow falls on Brethil -Húrin in Nargothrond -Húrin in Doriath Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl 1 The birth and fostering of Tuor 2 The call of Ulmo 3 The arriving at Vinyamar 4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo 5 Voronwë 6 The quest of Gondolin 7 The hidden pass 8 The arriving at Gondolin 9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star 10 The Treason of Maeglin 11 The Fall of Gondolin 12 The Flight of the exiles 13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen 14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil 15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying 16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star Genealogies Map Translations from the Elvish Vol.3 The Second and Third Ages First Part The Second Age I Númenor Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor Epilogue Appendix 1 A description of the Island of Númenor 2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife 3 The line of Elros II Middle Earth Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans Of the return of Sauron Of Galadriel and Celeborn Of the Rings of Power Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor Of the last alliance of Elves and Men Appendix The Tale of Years of the Second Age Second Part The Third Age Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age -Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain -Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain -Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion -Of the Stewards -The Oath of Cirion and Eorl Of the Folk of Durin Of the Eldar in the Third Age Of the Istari Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel Appendix 1 The Heirs of Elendil 2 The Kings of the March 3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age 4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age. Third Part General Notes I Of Aman -Aman and Mortal men II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien V Of Amroth and Nimrodel VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain IX Of the origins of the Istari X Of the Elessar XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath -The faithful stone -Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath XII Of the Palantiri XIII Of the Quest of Erebor XIV Of the Hunt for the Ring -Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo -Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire XV Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen Fourth Part General guide of names Maps Greetings. Last edited by gondowe; 12-07-2011 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Revision

07-23-2009, 05:18 PM	#3
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	I think the line about Eöl is the most devastating to the theory of Thingol being one of the firstborn. I can't reconcile them at all, and thus I must say that Thingol was of the later generations.

08-30-2010, 09:37 AM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Nice to hear you are still active, Gondowe. Sorry that we can not say the same about our own project. Concerning the contents of your projected books: What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included. Anyway, what I observed also is that you would try to bring both versions of the big tales: a short one in the body of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' and an extanded one in the collection of the 'Atanatarion'. Do you not fear that tahs might lead to a big deal of repeatition of one and the same text in all the places were the full versions of th ebig tales break off? Respectfuly Findegil

08-30-2010, 03:16 PM	#7
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Good to see both of you around! I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, Gondowe, and I wish you the best. I'm hoping to have some time to devote to getting our project moving again in the near future (within the next month or so). If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it!