Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Sauron the White]

Since we both agree that we both speak English .... there can be different meanings to the same term. DEDICATED TO (the phrase used by JRRT in his Waldman letter) can be intrepreted different ways.

One way would be that Tolkien is honoring England by dedicating his mythology to it in the same way that one would dedicate a book to honor someone. It seems - and correct me if I am wrong - that is the way you are intrepreting this phrase.

DEDICATED TO - can also mean that a certain work has been set aside for a specific purpose.

I could use this phrase... "I am going to write a book dedicated to the early years of the work of Mozart." Clearly I am not saying I am honoring Mozart but am saying that I am writing about his early years of work.

I think that one can read the statement of Tolkien and come to the exact same conclusion that Carpenter did in the Authorized Biography TOLKIEN.

It is ironic that we are disputing the meaning of words attributed to JRRT - a man who worked on the OED defining a few of his own.

[davem]

Re: 'A Mythology for England'.

Again, we have to go back to Tolkien the young man. One of Tolkien's great inspirations was Lonrot's Kalevala. The Kalevala was presented as 'Finland's mythology' - a 'mythology for Finland'. & it had a momentous effect on Finland - ultimately it proved to be the spark that produced Finland's independence. The nation was transformed - it got a mythic history of its own & that created a sense of national identity. The 'myth' rejuventated the people & gave them a new vision. The fact that it was to a great extent 'creative accounting' on Lonrot's part, & that he wasn't averse to 'inventing' & 'constructing' what he couldn't find, is not really the issue.

Tolkien wanted the same - for a while. He wanted to create not a wholly new mythology for England, but to draw together what had survived of ancient myth & legend. Tolkien believed that two things had devastated England's native mythology - the 'War' (ie the Norman Invasion) & the Industrial Revolution - the first by bringing in French influence/legends (of which the Arthurian Legends are the classic example, because its not the Celtic Arthur but the French version who took over. In other words, its Chretien's Arthur, rather than the Arthur of the Mabinogion's Culhwch & Olwen) |& the second by breaking up the closed rural communities which had preserved legends, folklore, & songs for so long.

Of course it could be argued that England never had the kind of complex, coherent mythology that Tolkien dreamed of 'recreating'. However, that's another question. The point is, he, & the TCBS dreamed of an English Mythology having the same effect on their own land that the Kalevala had had on Finland. There would be a new mythology built from the bricks that survived of the old. England would take up the myth, be inspired like the Finns, a sense of Englishness would inspire people to return to decency, morality & faith.

The TCBS was obliterated on the Somme - two of the four died, but the vision lived on. Tolkien clearly felt that he had an obligation to continue the work. He was invalided back to England with Trench Fever, & began The Book of Lost Tales, & continued on, developing the Silmarillion.

Yet, by the time of the Waldman letter, his 'crest had fallen', & by the time of the Second Edition of LotR he could state (in the Foreword to his most successful & famous work) that the book had 'no inner meaning or message'. The TCBS went to war driven by a desire to transform their country via a new 'mythic history' of its people. Thirty-odd years later Tolkien has, perhaps regretfully, left behind that desire. Fifteen or so years after that, when writing the Foreword to the Second Edition in the mid sixties, he could declare it was 'Art' & only itself - certainly not a 'mythology for England'. So why the change?

Well, certainly if Mythology had been shown to have a power for good via the Kalevala, it had also been shown to have a power for evil via Wagner & the Third Reich.

The problem with myths is their power. They are difficult to control & their effect is too unpredictable.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Since we both agree that we both speak English .... there can be different meanings to the same term. DEDICATED TO (the phrase used by JRRT in his Waldman letter) can be intrepreted different ways.

One way would be that Tolkien is honoring England by dedicating his mythology to it in the same way that one would dedicate a book to honor someone. It seems - and correct me if I am wrong - that is the way you are intrepreting this phrase.

DEDICATED TO - can also mean that a certain work has been set aside for a specific purpose.

I could use this phrase... "I am going to write a book dedicated to the early years of the work of Mozart." Clearly I am not saying I am honoring Mozart but am saying that I am writing about his early years of work.

I think that one can read the statement of Tolkien and come to the exact same conclusion that Carpenter did in the Authorized Biography TOLKIEN.

One can come to that conclusion being the operative word. As that is a very singular way of using English.

Just think for a moment how that might appear. "I am going to dedicate a work to the purpose of England." The purpose? And is England a purpose in itself? I suppose it might be if you are of that mind, but it doesn't really make any sense as it would be a hanging sentence. You may complete it of course by adding a purpose to the England referred to in the sentence, but then of course you would be putting words into the mouth of the man who wrote the sentence.

No, I am afraid that is rather a little more forced than a packet of Mentos stuffed into a coke bottle and might explode just as spectacularly if given more than a light shaking.

Of course, if dedicate in this context means set aside for the specific purpose of (and we are not going to include the word 'purpose' in our sentence but instead have it as a definition outside of the actual words spoken) then that would mean Tolkien's work was provided specifically for England only and lots of people the world over ought to hand in their books right now.

On the other hand it is much easier to simply read what was written and not try and force the meaning into something else. Even at the risk of making the delightful (for he was) Carpenter look like he made a slight error, which would be a fruitless trifle (mmm) to worry about anyway as he made others.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Even at the risk of making the delightful (for he was) Carpenter look like he made a slight error, which would be a fruitless trifle (mmm) to worry about anyway as he made others.

Certainly, as Garth points up, Carpenter overplayed Tolkien's 'dislike' of both Shakespeare & Wagner.