High Elves and the Balrogs

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane?

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Rog: The name never has appeared in print, except in HoME. He's a leftover from a very primitive stage in what would become Sindarin, when it was still called Goldogrin or Gnomish.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

Ahh i understand where you are coming from now, thanks alot for explaining your perspective.

I think its interesting how Ecthelion managed to stay Gothmog with conventional equipment, as did Glorfindel, whereas Gandalf the Maiar was dependent on his hocus pocus to kill Durin's Bane after days of combat.

The lesson in this: Do not mess with an angry Elf.

It leaves many questions unanswered though if we choose to not necessarily include some of Tolkien's earlier work in evalutions.

[Mithadan]

I've not gone back to read this entire thread so I may simply be repeating what some other member has said here. The relative strength of the Balrog's opponent may be entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the combatant can survive. There appears to be an unwritten rule in the Legendarium that "he who slays one of the people of the Ainur must also perish." Indeed there is no case known where one who defeats any of the few Maiar reported as slain manages to survive. Ecthelion and Balrog, both died. Glorfindel and Balrog, both died. Gandalf and Balrog (or Balrog and Gandalf), both dead. Wormtongue and Saruman, both dead. Elendil/Gil-Galad and Sauron, all dead.

My, isn't this just so pleasant?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Balrogs vs. Noldor: it's tragically the case that Tolkien only wrote an account of Gondolin's fall twice: the very early Tale, in fact the first one he ever wrote; and the version which perforce was used in the published Silmarillion, which dates from 1930. He never returned to it. Had he finished the 'Long Tuor' (in UT) we might have had a completely new take on Ecthelion and Glorfindel.

It is perhaps worth noting that Gandalf, like these two, had a Gondolin-made sword.

[Mithadan]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.

I would love to see a more detailed version of Ecthelion Vs Gothmog aswell, it would be fantastic. I second your notion sir! Two of the most renown warriors of Middle Earth, how glorified, yet how satisfying.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

And the recovery of the hero's body by a Great Eagle... and the fact that both were reincarnated.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.

Yes, in fact I believe I posted something to this effect earlier. The parallels between Gandalf and Glorfindel are pretty striking, even beyond the Balrog fight.

As to the Balrog coming to Lothlorien, this seems to make no sense. Certainly the Balrog would not be able to overcome the protection of Lothlorien, since only Sauron (and probably then with the Ring) would be able to do so. In fact, it seems noteworthy to me that the Balrog stayed hidden in the deep recesses of Moria. There is no record of him ever venturing forth that I know of...

[Mithadan]

The parallels between Gandalf and Glorfindel are pretty striking, even beyond the Balrog fight.

I read somewhere, perhaps here, the theory that there exist in the Legendarium a class of "heroes" known as White Riders. That theory included both Glorfindel and Gandalf within this category, based upon their apparent power over opponents while on horseback and the fact that both seemed to possess an inner white light.