High Elves and the Balrogs

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It must also be remembered that Celebrimbor originally gave the Three Rings of Power only to his High-King, Gil-Galad, and to Galadriel (Gil-Galad then giving one each to Elrond and Cirdan, who in turn gave his to Gandalf). This, I believe, infers the status of Galadriel amongst the Elves.

While there's little doubt about her native power, this I think also was a question of 'legitimacy:' Gil-Galad and Galadriel were the only fully-Elven members of the House of Finwe left in Middle-earth.


Hammerhand: I' think you're confusing the meaning of 'early' and 'late' Balrogs. What folks are trying to say is that Balrogs *in JRRT's early writings* are more numerous and less individually powerful than they would become *in Tolkien's later writings*- not that from an internal perspective Balrogs became more powerful over time.


Canonicity: If we're going to confine ourself to works published before 1973, then the Balrog of Moria is the *only* one. If on the other hand we take the more reasonable approach of trying to deduce from existing writings what Tolkien's considered opinion was, then we see that as late as ca. 1970 Glorfindel's duel was still in effect; and as late as the work on 'Maeglin' Glorfindel and Ecthelion are paired as the great captains of the Hidden City. What we can't do is conclude that the old Tale remains canonical, notwithstanding certain elements of Tuor's journey which would endure: the heraldry of 1917 was gone by 1951, as were (almost certainly) the mechanical dragon-tanks, and any linguistic structure that would allow an Elf to be named "Rog."

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Hammerhand: I' think you're confusing the meaning of 'early' and 'late' Balrogs. What folks are trying to say is that Balrogs *in JRRT's early writings* are more numerous and less individually powerful than they would become *in Tolkien's later writings*- not that from an internal perspective Balrogs became more powerful over time.


Canonicity: If we're going to confine ourself to works published before 1973, then the Balrog of Moria is the *only* one. If on the other hand we take the more reasonable approach of trying to deduce from existing writings what Tolkien's considered opinion was, then we see that as late as ca. 1970 Glorfindel's duel was still in effect; and as late as the work on 'Maeglin' Glorfindel and Ecthelion are paired as the great captains of the Hidden City. What we can't do is conclude that the old Tale remains canonical, notwithstanding certain elements of Tuor's journey which would endure: the heraldry of 1917 was gone by 1951, as were (almost certainly) the mechanical dragon-tanks, and any linguistic structure that would allow an Elf to be named "Rog."

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane? Furthermore, if there were only seven Balrogs at a time in ME, how come we never hear of any besides Durin's Bane in the third age? and why didn't they help Sauron? Doesn't really make sense to me.

My previous point concerning Fingolfin was solid. If a powerful elf can wound a Valar, why wouldn't one be able to wound or kill a 'later' Balrog? Say for example that Ecthelion fought Durin's Bane, would you conclude that Durin's Bane would triumph? Swap Ecthelion with Glorfindel or Fingolfin, would you draw the same conclusion? Alot of this topic is hypothetical, being that half of the people being debated never fought a Balrog, and most of those that did, fought 'early' Balrogs.

I also think personally, that if there is an elf named "Rog", and it was published, we can only assume it was meant to be - maybe Tolkien, the lawmaker, didn't want a Nordic representation of him? I am not a linguistics expert, it just seems to me that though most of the names in ME have a 'meaning' as such, does it make it obligatory?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

So if the Balrogs were less powerful, would that mean Gothmog was less powerful than Durin's Bane?

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Rog: The name never has appeared in print, except in HoME. He's a leftover from a very primitive stage in what would become Sindarin, when it was still called Goldogrin or Gnomish.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

No, because Gothmog simply became a 'later' Balrog over the course of Tolkien's life: he appears in the Narn i Chin Hurin (mid-1950's) by name, as High-Captain of Angband and the slayer of Fingon. It's probably fair to say that Tolkien's view of Balrogs' puissance generally was modified by the might he gave Gandalf's foe.


I'ts not the case that there were "seven Balrogs at a time." There were seven, period. They didn't get replaced. Two were killed at Gondolin; during the War odf Wrath "wellnigh all" of them were destroyed, "save some few" who hid themselves deep underground. That particular line in the Silm. actually predates the Lord of the Rings, when there were hordes of the buggers. In any event, it's clear that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog of Moria, so it and any possible other survivors of the Elder Days were presumably in some sort of hibernation, or trapped, or otherwise not in play.

Besides, why would any Balrog serve Sauron? There's no suggestion the one we know about did- it seemed content to spend over a thousand years lurking in Moria and not exerting itself.

Ahh i understand where you are coming from now, thanks alot for explaining your perspective.

I think its interesting how Ecthelion managed to stay Gothmog with conventional equipment, as did Glorfindel, whereas Gandalf the Maiar was dependent on his hocus pocus to kill Durin's Bane after days of combat.

The lesson in this: Do not mess with an angry Elf.

It leaves many questions unanswered though if we choose to not necessarily include some of Tolkien's earlier work in evalutions.

[Mithadan]

I've not gone back to read this entire thread so I may simply be repeating what some other member has said here. The relative strength of the Balrog's opponent may be entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the combatant can survive. There appears to be an unwritten rule in the Legendarium that "he who slays one of the people of the Ainur must also perish." Indeed there is no case known where one who defeats any of the few Maiar reported as slain manages to survive. Ecthelion and Balrog, both died. Glorfindel and Balrog, both died. Gandalf and Balrog (or Balrog and Gandalf), both dead. Wormtongue and Saruman, both dead. Elendil/Gil-Galad and Sauron, all dead.

My, isn't this just so pleasant?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Balrogs vs. Noldor: it's tragically the case that Tolkien only wrote an account of Gondolin's fall twice: the very early Tale, in fact the first one he ever wrote; and the version which perforce was used in the published Silmarillion, which dates from 1930. He never returned to it. Had he finished the 'Long Tuor' (in UT) we might have had a completely new take on Ecthelion and Glorfindel.

It is perhaps worth noting that Gandalf, like these two, had a Gondolin-made sword.

[Mithadan]

In my view, the duel between the Balrog and Glorfindel was basically rewritten as the duel between Gandalf and the Balrog, even to the details of the Balrog tumbling down from a great height and bouncing off the side of the mountain (because either his wings were injured or were shadows incapable of supporting his weight or.... never mind).

I would have liked to have seen Tolkien rewrite the duel of Ecthelion and the Balrog. Impaling a foe on the spike of one's helmet seems inelegant.