High Elves and the Balrogs

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Galadriel was more powerful than Glorfindel.

Why would you say that?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why would you say that?

Because of references already posted in this thread. You may believe that Glorfindel, in his enhancement, exceeded what was previously the upper limit of Eldarin power (Luthien, Feanor, Galadriel) but I do not, and can see no support for the idea.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

Tolkien evidently does not share Galadriel's opinion of herself, since "others" in the first sentence appears to include the Elves, and he clearly names only Gandalf as having sufficient spiritual stature. He also becomes confusing at the end, saying that among the other guardians of the Three (other than Galadriel; i.e. Gandalf and Elrond), Elrond is especially capable. Elrond is more capable than Gandalf? I think Tolkien misspoke here, unless he was referring to who would yield the most desirable outcome from becoming the new Lord of the Ring. In which case, power alone is not the only consideration.

Edit: Or, as Morthoron mentioned, he refers to the ring bearers of all ages. Good post.

[Boromir88]

Actually the original quote was taken out of context and not given in full, which greatly alters the meaning of the entire part:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.~Letter 246

To set up the scenario here Tolkien was talking about Frodo claiming the Ring and a hypothetical 'Frodo ringbearer' scenario. He goes onto say that Frodo would not have been able to do much, he would have been taken back to Sauron, tortured and Sauron would have the Ring back. He goes on to say that no mortal could possible beat Sauron for mastery of the Ring. And the only reason Aragorn beat Sauron in the contest with the palantir was because it took place at a distant and Aragorn was the rightful owner.

He then moves onto 'the others' (which like obloquy I assume as Maiar and Elves)...to which he says only Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron for mastery of the Ring. He then talks about the 'other guardians' of the Elven Rings (which I think he would only be referring to Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf as those are the only ones he mentions).

What's important here is Tolkien doesn't say what he thinks, but what his characters think:

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord.

He then goes onto say that if Galadriel 'conceived' this herself so did the other Guardians...specially Elrond: If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

This quote is talking about what the bearers felt they could use the One Ring for, and that's why the last part of the quote (which seems to be conveniently left out) is important to the understanding. As he then talks about the 'essential deceit of the Ring.' Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf were all smart enough to know that the Ring was deceiving them with visions of 'supreme power' and were able to reject their own thoughts of using the Ring against Sauron. It has nothing to do with power unless you use it to show why Gandalf was one (if not the) most powerful person on Middle-earth. It is more about what various people thought they could do with the Ring (but the Ring being the evil little deceiver it is fills people with ideas of grandeur and power) and what they could actually do.

[obloquy]

Great post, Boromir88. My reputation button is not functioning, so I have to just tell you here that I appreciate your contribution.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

You may believe that Glorfindel, in his enhancement, exceeded what was previously the upper limit of Eldarin power (Luthien, Feanor, Galadriel) but I do not, and can see no support for the idea.

I wouldn't equate Galadriel being capable of wielding the ring with her being more powerful than Glorfindel in battle. In letter #246, Tolkien talks even about Frodo possibly becoming capable of wielding the ring, should his will be given enough time

Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills.

However, even if it occurred, I doubt that Frodo (without his ring) would be more powerful than Glorfindel, in battle, since his will (which is implied to be the one ingredient necessary for controlling the ring) and the battle skills of a hobbit would simply not suffice to take down an Elf Lord (or a balrog, for that matter).

Originally Posted by obloquy

Great post, Boromir88. My reputation button is not functioning, so I have to just tell you here that I appreciate your contribution.

I got the same problem; instead of clicking the reputation button, I opened it in a new window (or tab) and I was able to rep.

[obloquy]

I wouldn't equate Galadriel being capable of wielding the ring with her being more powerful than Glorfindel in battle.

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

I wasn't talking about that, actually. I was referring to the text you quoted earlier in the thread from The Shibboleth of Feanor.

I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I see; sorry for the blunder. However, I have my doubts that being one of the greatest of the Noldor means she is more powerful in battle than Glorfindel; in my opinion, the title refers more to "political" role and achievements, rather than warrior abilities.

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

I don't deny that she has some cool tricks; however, that doesn't guarantee she can best Glorfindel in battle.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But what about the potent magicks that she has and performed? doesn't that count as "warrior" abillities? the phial, the scrying on sauron, the healing and shrouding fog over the Eorl's men, healing Gandalf, and repelling three waves of attacks... that doesn't count as "warrior" abilities? It seems to me that it is but of more grand scale than a one-on-one bout.

The last sentence was a good summary, however, i'm inclined to agree with Raynor on the point of her battle "abilities" - somebody made the statement earlier about her achievements being more "political", and that is the basis for the title "greatest". I think it has more to do with her perceptive abilities, strength of mind and will. To arrive at the conclusion that because she was dubbed "greatest" by Tolkien, she is a battle hardened war veteren of unmitigated power (exaggerated) i think is taking what Tolkien said and basing it on practically anything that can have a hierarchy. We have little evidence she could actually fight, and only a few scenarios whereby she is destructive through magic. For me, evidence is against her completely.