The Balrog vs The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

10-10-2007, 05:37 AM

If the Witch King was already enhanced, & Sauron did reclaim the Ring, would this make the Witch King more mightier than Gandalf the White & the Balrog? A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level (as was Sauron) with the Ruling Ring in his Master's hand. Even in this form he failed to make any serious impact, e.g. in the Last Alliance battle.

It is plausible to say then that this added demonic force nonsense was a mistake by Tolkein, as it implies to the reader that the Witch King has had a bit of a continuous fluctuation in his power, depending on whether Sauron had the Ring, & indeed without the Ring. Just when exactly do you think he peaked in his power? It would surely have been when Sauron had the Ring?

Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (with Ring)

Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (without Ring)

Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (enhanced)

Who will answer this problem? It appears Tolkein had made a mistake here. The Witch King can only be in his greatest form when Sauron himself is at his greatest. Yet, in the volume III Sauron is at his weakest form, yet he can enhance the Witch King close to Gandalf the White's power?? This cannot be. Also, when the Witch King is killed, it would also imply that Sauron has just squandered the added demonic force he gave away lightly, to the point he may have less power himself as a result. Perhaps in this state even Gandalf the White could defeat him?

Raynor · 10-10-2007, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level

From what point of view was he at the most powerful level and according to whom?

CSteefel · 10-10-2007, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level (as was Sauron) with the Ruling Ring in his Master's hand. Even in this form he failed to make any serious impact, e.g. in the Last Alliance battle.

This would presumably be true if there was a one to one relationship between the present power of Sauron and the Witch King. But it would seem that the power of the WK, beyond what he developed earlier as a mortal man, depends greatly on how much is given to him by Sauron. In the Second Age, Sauron himself appeared to take on Elendil and Gilgalad, so apparently the WK was not his only proxy able to go into battle. In contrast, I would say the WK was at his greatest power in the 3rd age, where he served as King of Angmar, destroying the North Kingdom altogether, and then later as commander of the armies attacking Minas Tirith. Of course, we should not discount completely his defeat of Earnur in the 3rd Age.

I would say that if Sauron did recover the One Ring, then he might have increased the power of the Witch King commensurately, but whether he would have felt the need to do so is another question. My reading of the WK's role in the 2nd Age is that Sauron did not feel the need to do so then...

10-10-2007, 12:21 PM

Be serious - Sauron controls & commands the power of the Nazgul, so if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also. The Witch King would only be in his greatest form if his Master had the Ring, as Gandalf hinted in the House of Elrond.

Raynor · 10-10-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also

Why? Where does Tolkien make such a correlation?

10-10-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why? Where does Tolkien make such a correlation?

The WHOLE story is the correlation. Put simply, if the baddie gets the Ring, Middle Earth falls.

CSteefel · 10-10-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

Be serious - Sauron controls & commands the power of the Nazgul, so if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also. The Witch King would only be in his greatest form if his Master had the Ring, as Gandalf hinted in the House of Elrond.

Yes, but to repeat yet again, there is not necessarily a one to one correlation in the power conveyed to the Witch King or any of the Nazgul by Sauron. If this WAS the case, then why don't we hear more of the Witch King and the Nazgul back in the 2nd Age? Why wasn't the Witch King back then defeating the Numenoreans??

10-10-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Yes, but to repeat yet again, there is not necessarily a one to one correlation in the power conveyed to the Witch King or any of the Nazgul by Sauron. If this WAS the case, then why don't we hear more of the Witch King and the Nazgul back in the 2nd Age? Why wasn't the Witch King back then defeating the Numenoreans??

The Second Age saw the fall of Sauron, in what appeared a mightier resistence against him. Plus, do not discount the enchanted blades which were made for the wars in those days to fend off the Nazgul. If anything, Sauron should have given the Witch King a power-up in this age.

Ecthel · 08-24-2008, 08:23 PM

alatar · 08-25-2008, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecthel

Ecthel, Welcome to the Downs! That image takes a bit to download; maybe you can give us some information regarding the same to mull over while we wait.

Gordis · 08-26-2008, 05:16 AM

Echtel, welcome!

What a great picture - awesome!!!
Is it your own drawing? If so, congratulations, you are a fine artist!

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10-10-2007, 05:37 AM	#1
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	If the Witch King was already enhanced, & Sauron did reclaim the Ring, would this make the Witch King more mightier than Gandalf the White & the Balrog? A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level (as was Sauron) with the Ruling Ring in his Master's hand. Even in this form he failed to make any serious impact, e.g. in the Last Alliance battle. It is plausible to say then that this added demonic force nonsense was a mistake by Tolkein, as it implies to the reader that the Witch King has had a bit of a continuous fluctuation in his power, depending on whether Sauron had the Ring, & indeed without the Ring. Just when exactly do you think he peaked in his power? It would surely have been when Sauron had the Ring? Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (with Ring) Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (without Ring) Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (enhanced) Who will answer this problem? It appears Tolkein had made a mistake here. The Witch King can only be in his greatest form when Sauron himself is at his greatest. Yet, in the volume III Sauron is at his weakest form, yet he can enhance the Witch King close to Gandalf the White's power?? This cannot be. Also, when the Witch King is killed, it would also imply that Sauron has just squandered the added demonic force he gave away lightly, to the point he may have less power himself as a result. Perhaps in this state even Gandalf the White could defeat him?

10-10-2007, 12:21 PM	#4
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	Be serious - Sauron controls & commands the power of the Nazgul, so if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also. The Witch King would only be in his greatest form if his Master had the Ring, as Gandalf hinted in the House of Elrond.

08-24-2008, 08:23 PM	#9
Ecthel Newly Deceased Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1

08-26-2008, 05:16 AM	#11
Gordis Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 431	Echtel, welcome! What a great picture - awesome!!! Is it your own drawing? If so, congratulations, you are a fine artist!