The Balrog vs The Witch King

Originally Posted by Raynor

Their chief weapon is fear.

Though it may symbolise that, I don't see why it is the case here. Why do you keep insisting on this, if you have no evidence?

We are not discussing the bible and its symbols or wikipedia.

Indeed, we have no evidence at all of whatsoever, regarding the blade or his motivations. Therefore, no valid argument can be made.

Raynor, you insist to disagree with everything unless it is laid it writing by Tolkein plain & clear. If he were to do that, the LOTR would be the most boring book of all time. The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings. Wikipedia has also been regarded by many as being more accurate than any encyclopedia.

I would suggest you try to look at some literacy anaylsis books to see how symbolic objects are meant to be interpreted in literature.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings.

Such as.....?

The Witch-king's motivations are pretty explicitly laid out in the complex of papers associated with The Hunt for the Ring.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Such as.....?

The Witch-king's motivations are pretty explicitly laid out in the complex of papers associated with The Hunt for the Ring.

I suggest you look to another thread I started sometime ago in the Books forum called The Lord of the Bible?. This thread has many excellent examples.

If the Witch King was already enhanced, & Sauron did reclaim the Ring, would this make the Witch King more mightier than Gandalf the White & the Balrog? A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level (as was Sauron) with the Ruling Ring in his Master's hand. Even in this form he failed to make any serious impact, e.g. in the Last Alliance battle.

It is plausible to say then that this added demonic force nonsense was a mistake by Tolkein, as it implies to the reader that the Witch King has had a bit of a continuous fluctuation in his power, depending on whether Sauron had the Ring, & indeed without the Ring. Just when exactly do you think he peaked in his power? It would surely have been when Sauron had the Ring?

Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (with Ring)

Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (without Ring)

Gandalf the White vs The Witch King (enhanced)

Who will answer this problem? It appears Tolkein had made a mistake here. The Witch King can only be in his greatest form when Sauron himself is at his greatest. Yet, in the volume III Sauron is at his weakest form, yet he can enhance the Witch King close to Gandalf the White's power?? This cannot be. Also, when the Witch King is killed, it would also imply that Sauron has just squandered the added demonic force he gave away lightly, to the point he may have less power himself as a result. Perhaps in this state even Gandalf the White could defeat him?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level

From what point of view was he at the most powerful level and according to whom?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

A major problem lies when we look back at the Witch King in the second age when he was at his most powerful level (as was Sauron) with the Ruling Ring in his Master's hand. Even in this form he failed to make any serious impact, e.g. in the Last Alliance battle.

This would presumably be true if there was a one to one relationship between the present power of Sauron and the Witch King. But it would seem that the power of the WK, beyond what he developed earlier as a mortal man, depends greatly on how much is given to him by Sauron. In the Second Age, Sauron himself appeared to take on Elendil and Gilgalad, so apparently the WK was not his only proxy able to go into battle. In contrast, I would say the WK was at his greatest power in the 3rd age, where he served as King of Angmar, destroying the North Kingdom altogether, and then later as commander of the armies attacking Minas Tirith. Of course, we should not discount completely his defeat of Earnur in the 3rd Age.

I would say that if Sauron did recover the One Ring, then he might have increased the power of the Witch King commensurately, but whether he would have felt the need to do so is another question. My reading of the WK's role in the 2nd Age is that Sauron did not feel the need to do so then...

Be serious - Sauron controls & commands the power of the Nazgul, so if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also. The Witch King would only be in his greatest form if his Master had the Ring, as Gandalf hinted in the House of Elrond.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also

Why? Where does Tolkien make such a correlation?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Be serious - Sauron controls & commands the power of the Nazgul, so if he is at his weakest, the the Nazgul will be also. The Witch King would only be in his greatest form if his Master had the Ring, as Gandalf hinted in the House of Elrond.

Yes, but to repeat yet again, there is not necessarily a one to one correlation in the power conveyed to the Witch King or any of the Nazgul by Sauron. If this WAS the case, then why don't we hear more of the Witch King and the Nazgul back in the 2nd Age? Why wasn't the Witch King back then defeating the Numenoreans??

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Raynor, you insist to disagree with everything unless it is laid it writing by Tolkein plain & clear. If he were to do that, the LOTR would be the most boring book of all time. The link between biblical history & the LOTR is clearly made by Tolkein in many of his writings. Wikipedia has also been regarded by many as being more accurate than any encyclopedia.

I would suggest you try to look at some literacy anaylsis books to see how symbolic objects are meant to be interpreted in literature.

Interesting that you criticize Raynor for not adhering to Tolkien (let's forget about the fact that you discount his inferences, while promoting your own with little to support them other than speculation), with the following statements just below

It is plausible to say then that this added demonic force nonsense was a mistake by Tolkein, as it implies to the reader that the Witch King has had a bit of a continuous fluctuation in his power, depending on whether Sauron had the Ring, & indeed without the Ring.

where you seem to discount what Tolkien actually said quite clearly in his letters.