Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Clever, and your point is well taken; however, the question is asked of those "IN" LotR whereas the author stands outside it. So it is not, technically, an omission.

As Child pointed out, there are narrators who are part of the story--I believe we even had a thread on the Conceit of the Narrator. Yet at the same time, there are many threads here which attempt to discover who Tolkien is by virtue of his writing--and not just the more autobiographical writings such as Leaf by Niggle and Smith of Wootton Major. There are many Downers no less than other readers (those poor unfortunates who have not found this piece of Middle-earth in the Seventh Age) who insist that we can know many things about an author from his work. There's an entire sub-category of literary analysis based upon psychoanalytic theory, for instance, as well as less theoretical interpretations which believe that the nature or character of the person is unfolded by his or her writing. So for those readers, Tolkien truly is in the text. He does, after all, have by far the greatest effect on the action, having decided either consciously or unconsciously what the story would be, where it would go, who would be the characters. Who other than the author has such an impact upon the action of the story?

But both Child's and Raynor's posts bring another interesting dimension to this question by pointing out that Tolkien, at some point in his life, decided or realized that what he was writing was true history, the very essence of real myth and he spent the remaining years of his life niggling his Legendarium to reflect more clearly aspects of his faith. Does this mean Tolkien saw himself as a Prophet, revealing God's truth? Did Tolkien believe that his writing personally helped him recover from the Fall--that is, did he believe that his writing granted him a State of Grace?

[littlemanpoet]

Interpret it as you like, but for the purposes of this thread the only 6 choices are those provided. Sorry.

I'm rather impressed, however, with Gandalf as an effective liar. Creating poll threads is a rather dangerous business since someone else will pretty certainly think of something I didn't. So it goes.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Interpret it as you like, but for the purposes of this thread the only 6 choices are those provided. Sorry.

I'm rather impressed, however, with Gandalf as an effective liar. Creating poll threads is a rather dangerous business since someone else will pretty certainly think of something I didn't. So it goes.

Well, as mentioned, the issue is not just about those included, but the extent of time that is acceptable..

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, as mentioned, the issue is not just about those included, but the extent of time that is acceptable..

Well, I made a referee call but you disagreed.

This thread has gone south as far as I'm concerned, in directions I never intended. But it's not mine, it belongs to everybody who posts.

The most effective rule, if anybody really wants one (which I doubt), is to leave your discussions strictly to the contents of the 6 "books", not including the appendices. And not including clever stuff about the Redbook of Westmarch or Tolkien as one of the characters up for grabs.

But it seems like people are having just as much fun questioning or flouting the parameters, so if that's what you really want to do with this thread, have at it. There. My sour grapes have been squeezed out, and I'm done complaining. Have at it.

[Boromir88]

But it seems like people are having just as much fun questioning or flouting the parameters, so if that's what you really want to do with this thread, have at it.~lmp

Aye, there's no sense in stomping out creativity. Even if it is a poll thread why set up restrictions and limit the possibilities? I didn't know the Down's decided to beef up their security and start screening what thoughtful input was allowed and what wasn't. "Sorry Miss, you are not allowed to bring Morgoth into this discussion. As you see he is not one of the acceptable choices."

I was told a story about a theater class. They decided to do the play Romeo and Juliet. However, there was only one boy who was not assigned a part, as they ran out of roles. So, the teacher asked him what he wanted to do, he could help behind the scenes, he could be a 'townsperson,' what did he want? The boy said he wanted to be a pig that shadowed Juliet and mirrored her emotions. The teacher laughed it off and said, "there are no pigs in Romeo and Juliet." The boy replied "Well, there is in this one."

By restricting the info that is allowed to be mentioned you discourage creative thinking, and creativity can offer fascinating insights that you never considered before.

With that said, this is a new idea, and a thread that has sparked some great discussion. So, how about we get back to that, eh?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, how about we get back to that, eh?

Carry on.

By the way, I'm voting Sauron. See, it occurred to me that not once did Gandalf actually speak any words directly to Sauron, so Gandalf cannot be said to have lied to him. He did, however, strategize in such a way that he knew, knowing evil for what it is, that Sauron would deceive himself. So Sauron sufficiently lied to himself to lose the war. Thus, with this added reason to others so far posted, Sauron was the most effective liar.