Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If we look at Saruman being able to completely fool Radagast and have Gandalf 'blinded' up until Saruman imprisons him; that is quite impressive. Sure, it's mentioned Gandalf was having some wariness as far as what Saruman was up to, but its clear Gandalf still trusted Saruman up until his imprisonment.

And why is this a great accomplishment? Gandalf had no reason to believe that Saruman had joined forces with Sauron, so he obviously believed Saruman wanted to talk with him, which Saruman did.

It was not Sauron who physically destroyed Numenor. As for its moral decay, it began even before him.

That's right, but he was a key figure that played a significant role in the island's downfall.


What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it.

-Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him.

-Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence.

-Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not. They just didn't stay around to argue with him.

Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements.

-Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings.

-Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race!

-Even though he didn't ensnare all the leaders, as he had wished, Sauron still gained the service of the nine great kings of men, to become his greatest servants.

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.
Why do you think he is called Sauron the deceiver?

This is only my opinion
What about the Mouth of Sauron? It is my belief that Sauron could speak through this person, and it is plain to see that the Mouth of Sauron fooled all but Aragorn at the Black Gate.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

And why is this a great accomplishment? Gandalf had no reason to believe that Saruman had joined forces with Sauron, so he obviously believed Saruman wanted to talk with him, which Saruman did.

Gandalf did not expect Saruman to imprison him; furthermore, Boro's post most likely refers to Gandalf believing Saruman and his lies for over 160 years - together with the rest of the White Council.

What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it.

Saruman managed to have the White Council do his bidding; he even managed to play Sauron for a while, after Sauron thought he had him in his hand.

-Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him.

Nor did Saruman expect Gandalf to do that.

-Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence.

I wouldn't downplay his works so easily; were it not for Gandalf the White, Rohan would have been most likely lost.

Originally Posted by Letter #156

Of course [Gandalf] remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman.

-Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not.

Then again, what matters in this thread is who is the most effective liar. The Witch-king episode is a perfect example of that.

Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements.

As said previously, Saruman didn't buy Sauron's lies - quite the contrary. On the other hand, Sauron and his servants were mislead by Saruman. Another example of who was the most effective liar.

-Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings.

Given their propensity towards Magic/Machine, a hobbit might have corrupted them . They wanted to believe, they were one of the easiest preys.

-Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race!

I don't think there is conclusive evidence that he deceived them in person - thus he might have a split merit at best in this situation.

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.

What do you mean?

[Groin Redbeard]

Raynor, you and I are going back and forth at each other not getting anywhere. We make good arguments and all the other person can do is come along and say: "that's not true, here's what really happened." Our minds are closed to each others logic, and I think it's time we agree to disagree with each other.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.

What about the Mouth of Sauron? It is my belief that Sauron could speak through this person, and it is plain to see that the Mouth of Sauron fooled all but Aragorn at the Black Gate.

I think both of these are only in the movie...

[Galendor]

For me, its definitely between Sauron and Saruman. Plenty of great evidence for both has been given. But, even after his defeat and the fall of Sauron, Saruman didn't miss a beat and went straight to the Shire, were he continued to advance his own agenda through deceit and manipulation. So my vote goes to Saruman as the most effective liar.

[MatthewM]

Why is Boromir even in this poll? Why is Denethor? Come on, they are not bad guys. Their situations are completely different, with the Ring and all. I could *maybe* see you making a case of Denethor, but definitely not Boromir. That's why nobody has voted for him. Because he does not belong there as a choice, in my opinion.

Anyway, I voted for Gollum. His lie did help save Middle earth, after all...

[Boromir88]

Why is Boromir even in this poll? Why is Denethor? Come on, they are not bad guys.~MatthewM

I think it follows along the lines of what Nogrod said...

It can't be Boromir for his deception was short-lived and dubious in the first place as he regretted it and tried to heal the damage he had done. He was indeed effective to the good side in the end.

And you don't have to be a 'bad guy' to be a good liar. I tossed out the idea that Gandalf/Aragorn were just as effective liars as anyone on that list because they deceived Sauron into believing they were going to use the Ring to overthrow him. But instead, they snuck two hobbits into Mordor.

And I believe Bethberry said Tolkien was the master liar.

[Lush]

For me, it came down to a tie between Sauron and Wormtongue. I ended up choosing Wormtongue. For an embittered little mortal dude, he sure did accomplish a lot.

[Eönwë]

I vote Saron because he made all the Numenoreans evil and take part in human sacrifice. He also makes the go to Aman and die, as well as making them worship Melko (Morgoth). Not to mention the things he did in the LOTR. Oh, and he created the dwarven rings, as well as the ones for men, and they both at first accepted them.