Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[Groin Redbeard]

There’s no doubt about it, Sauron the deceiver lied to the great smiths to create rings of power, so that he could give them to the great leaders of the races of Middle Earth, in hopes of controlling them all.

-He nearly controlled the Elves, but they were too clever for him.
-The Dwarves were a hardy race, and to resistant for him to take an immediate toll on them.
-The leaders of the race of men, however, fell victim to his scheme and became his greatest servants, the Nazgul.

Sauron also through his web of lies and deceit gained another dark servant: Saruman, another person who was known to be skilled with deceiving people and controlling them, as we saw with Theoden.

Now I have nothing to prove this thought, but wasn’t Sauron the one who brought about the destruction of Numenor? I’m pretty sure he corrupted the King at the time, but it has been a long time since I have read the Silmarillion.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Now I have nothing to prove this thought, but wasn’t Sauron the one who brought about the destruction of Numenor? I’m pretty sure he corrupted the King at the time

Yes, you are right. And Sauron's a very talented liar. I'll vote for him.

So far Wormtongue is the only other one in the running.

[mormegil]

You didn't ask best you asked most effective. Given the difference in powers and whatnot I would have to say Wormtongue as his 'powers' were rather limited and finite yet his decite accomplished a great deal towards his cause. He nearly fooled an entire kingdom and lacking Gandalf he would have been successful.

[Alfirin]

I though I should point out that Saruman gets away with another lie earlier in the book one that in its own way is both more audacios and more effective than any he is able to put over on Theoden via Wormtounge. The lie is when he tells the Morgul King that he does not know where the Shire is. As pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, Saruman would have had to know where it was. The agumen made goes something like this. Like Gandalf, Saruman by this tile also used pipeweed (Merry after being woken up by Aragorn and looking for his pipe says that the pipeweed he has is "some of Saruman's best") Since its use is still more or less unkown Tolkein makes it clear that the Shire and its immediate environs is the only place in middle earth from which pipeweed can be obtained. Therefore, anyone who uses pipeweed must have business contacts within the shire, or at least within hobbit lands. This lie is in its own way more audacious than those to Theoden. After all theoden represented little threat to Saruman on his own (i.e. sans ents and hourns) whereas lying to the morgul king if the lie was found out risked incurring the wrath of both the Morgul king (who is proably more powerful that Saruman one on one already by the time of the lie) and of Sauron himself. Even if Saruman was not yet in Sauron's thrall lying to the morgul king would be a risky move at best.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

whereas lying to the morgul king if the lie was found out risked incurring the wrath of both the Morgul king (who is proably more powerful that Saruman one on one already by the time of the lie) and of Sauron himself. Even if Saruman was not yet in Sauron's thrall lying to the morgul king would be a risky move at best.

Why might the Morgul king have been more powerful than Saruman? He was nothing but a Man, a wraith, even though one of Sauron's most powerful captains, whereas Saruman was one of the Istari and of much greater origin than the Morgul king. Sauron had far greater armies than Saruman though, but what could he have done to Saruman himself? And it would have been only ridiculous, had Sauron started to fight against Saruman instead of Gondor and Rohan...

I voted for Saruman.

I fail to see what made Boromir a liar. He never meant anything bad to happen, it wasn't his fault the Ring attracted him, and he never really lied. I would forget the incident on Amon Hen- Boromir wasn't being himself and soon recovered and regretted what he had done. And, as far as I see it, Boromir's lies didn't cause anything bad to happen, on the contrary. Frodo succeeded because he left the Fellowship then, and we don't know what would have happened, had he not done it on that very moment.
Sauron was scarier and more powerful as a servant of Melko than as the Dark Lord on the throne of Mordor. Furhermore, his power was rather in violence than in verbal things.
Gollum never really achieved anything by lying. In the end all his lies turned against him. The same goes with Denethor.

Even though he never had as great plans and motives, I think Wormtongue was in a way a better liar than Saruman- mainly because he wasn't too full of himself to see what happened around him (which happened to Saruman). What makes Saruman more effective is that he really used his power and knowledge. Wormtongue had a strong influence on Rohan's politics, true, but why was he working? Not for his own fun, surely, he never gained anything by betraying Théoden. He was Saruman's puppet, and his lies came directly from Saruman.

Saruman dared to cheat the other members of the White Council for quite a long time, and I think that was riskier than lying to the Morgul king. And would he have been revealed even that early, had he not decided to tell Gandalf about his plans?

Saruman's voice was of course an effective talent when it comes to lying. Nogrod said Saruman's lies were not profound enough, but it was his voice that made them profound and believable if they weren't that by themselves.

If there was something Saruman succeeded in, it was destroying the Shire for a while. After Saruman's death the damage done was fixed, but the whole country was under his control before Frodo & co. returned.
Everyone can decide themselves if it was a difficult thing to scare some Hobbits who didn't know anything about the cruel world, though...

Considering the Downfall of Númenor, I think Saruman would have managed to destroy Númenor with the same means Sauron did, had he been there in Sauron's stead.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Given the difference in powers and whatnot I would have to say Wormtongue as his 'powers' were rather limited and finite yet his decite accomplished a great deal towards his cause. He nearly fooled an entire kingdom and lacking Gandalf he would have been successful.

Your right about Grima almost fooled the ruler of an entire Kingdom, but he didn't succeed. It seems that Grima's only acconmplishement was to hold back Theoden from taking action against Saruman at the time. Besides, Grima was mearly a puppet for Saruman's master-plan, and Saruman was in turn a puppet for Sauron's master-plan. So you see, it all comes back to Sauron no matter on how you look at it.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, isn't the Second Age too early to be considered in this thread?

It dosen't say anywhere that we just have to be proned to focusing on achievements done in the Third Age.

And, considering the state of Ar-Pharazon, it wasn't that much of an accomplishment. Saruman, the Jack-of-all-trades, with his Voice, is capable of achieving the same, in my opinion.

Sauron destroyed an entire island, the homeland of the Numenoreans, the greatest fighting men of the age. Now if that's not an accomplishment I'd like to see what is.

You say that Saruman was capable of doing the same to the island of Numenor. He very well might have been able to, but he didn't. Therefore that makes Saurons acheivments all the more amazing, because no-one in the history of Middle Earth has done such an amazing feat.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Besides, Grima was mearly a puppet for Saruman's master-plan, and Saruman was in turn a puppet for Sauron's master-plan. So you see, it all comes back to Sauron no matter on how you look at it.

But we are not talking about who is the most adept strategist - but who is the most effective liar... you know.. the groundwork .

It dosen't say anywhere that we just have to be proned to focusing on achievements done in the Third Age.

I disagree... The very prologue of the LotR qualifies it as a story of the end of the Third Age. If we allow ourselves to extend its reach at will, then why not include Melkor in the vote; he would be a sure winner by all accounts.

Sauron destroyed an entire island, the homeland of the Numenoreans, the greatest fighting men of the age. Now if that's not an accomplishment I'd like to see what is.

It was not Sauron who physically destroyed Numenor. As for its moral decay, it began even before him.

You say that Saruman was capable of doing the same to the island of Numenor. He very well might have been able to, but he didn't. Therefore that makes Saurons acheivments all the more amazing, because no-one in the history of Middle Earth has done such an amazing feat.

Again, we are back at disregarding the boundaries of LotR and arbitrarily setting our own. Melkor accomplished far greater destructions, directly and indirectly.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I though I should point out that Saruman gets away with another lie earlier in the book one that in its own way is both more audacios and more effective than any he is able to put over on Theoden via Wormtounge. The lie is when he tells the Morgul King that he does not know where the Shire is.

Great point indeed.

Originally Posted by The hunt for the ring, UT

Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgul did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

I would further like to point that Saruman's voice is not magical, which adds even more credit to him, as far as this thread is concerned (emphasis original):

Originally Posted by Letter #210

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.