Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[ArathornJax]

This is where I have a different take on Aragorn then what those who are influenced by movie or other adaptations. For me, Aragorn is either Aragorn the Hero from day one, or Aragorn the Becoming/Emerging Hero, and where the becoming is more important then the hero. I guess regardless of adaptation, I feel that Aragorn is not the emerging hero, or the becoming hero, but is the hero from the get go.

Aragorn shows that he is the hero from the beginning in many of his actions, and at times throughout the travels of the Fellowship. We see Aragorn at Bree where Gandalf has left a list of his titles, a poem about him, and his real name. In Rivendell he is seen looking kingly, if not Elven. His actions at the Council further show his nobility and his hero status. On the Journey South, Aragorn challenges Gandalf on going through Moria, which displays his leadership and his deference to Gandalf, whom he knows is a Maia. Next at the Bridge of Khazad-dum, when he is willing to stand with Gandalf and Boromir against the Balrog. We see him move the Fellowship out of danger or closer to Lorien, taking a leadership role there. Celeborn consults with him and it is Aragorn who is making the decisions after Gandalf's fall.

Thus Aragorn's lament here is that in fact a mourn of his decisions in trying to resolve two inner conflicts. I do not believe that Aragorn intended or wanted to go to Mordor with Frodo. Not out of fear, but out of his own desires. I believe that if Gandalf had survived, Aragorn would have gone with Boromir to Minis Tirith. Why? Aragorn's heart was set upon reclaiming the throne of Gondor and Arnor. He would have been recognized as royalty by his people and the mere presence of his Rangers in the North would extend his claim to all of Eriador. In Gondor, the tradition had been set with Earnil, that someone of royal blood who had been victorious in battle and thus had won victory and glory for Gondor would become king. Aragorn's greatest desire was to gain the hand of Arwen. Thus going and showing his power in arms to Minis Tirith would have advanced his own claim as the last descendant in direct lineage from Elendil, something his forefather Arevedui had failed to do and had thus failed to reunite the two realms.

Then after Gandalf's fall, I believe that Aragorn felt that his duty lay with Frodo and with the quest, to destroy the ring. Aragorn again is showing his hero status by surrendering his own will and desires, and moving forward to do the noble and right thing. I think he felt that his duty was to go to Mordor with Frodo, and the breaking of the Fellowship represented to him, a failure of his duty with Frodo. It doesn't mean that he is becoming or moving to being a hero, he is a hero at this point, and throughout the story. That makes sense to me for Aragorn's words here are: Now the Company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. Thus was Aragorn's lament here, not of an emerging King, but of a Lord of Numenor of Old, willing to do his duty, but feeling that his own choices and fate have taken him from his duty. One of the things missing here for me was Aragorn holding Boromir and weeping. I think this cements Aragorn as a hero, and shows his depth of compassion.

We can see this further in Aragorn's comments to Legolas and Gimli when he says I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer.

Aragorn's heart here (and in the adaptations and book) show that his heart was divided between fulfilling his status as a hero by going with Frodo to Mordor and the end, or by going to Minis Tirith and fulfilling that destiny. At last Aragorn is no longer torn and he can now seek his destiny.

Thus Aragorn was not a hero becoming, but was a hero who showed glimpses of his true self when it was appropriate or when it served a purpose.

In terms of Boromir's death, his funeral may have been pagan, and I think we can discuss that, but his death was very Christian, or Catholic. Boromir gave a death bed and final confession. It is very similar to Roland's death who does against a tree with a broken horn next to him. I am very grateful that in the BBC adaptation that the song sung by Aragorn and Legolas was omitted.

I also loved the voice work of Treebeard and felt it was a wonderful job. The whole Treebeard, Merry and Pippin scene really showed how the two Hobbits are developing, while introducing Treebeard.

Finally, for me, the highlight was the scene with Frodo, Sam and Gollum where Frodo reflects on his words on pity and realizes that he has pity for Gollum. This scene was magic for me.

I also noticed an error in the text that DaveM posted on this episode. When Aragorn says:

Aragorn: Gandalf! Beyond all hope you return to us in our need! What veil was over my site?

This really should be sight.

Lots more and I may post more tomorrow. I was out of town and on the northern California coast with my wife, kids, my mother, my two sisters and there families until today. No Internet, no TV, no video games, it was heaven and a welcome break.

[davem]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

In terms of Boromir's death, his funeral may have been pagan, and I think we can discuss that, but his death was very Christian, or Catholic. Boromir gave a death bed and final confession. It is very similar to Roland's death who does against a tree with a broken horn next to him. I am very grateful that in the BBC adaptation that the song sung by Aragorn and Legolas was omitted. .

I can't see that you could argue that Boromir's funeral wasn't 'Pagan' (though probably Tolkien would have used the term 'heroic'). Boat/ship funerals - whether by burning, burial or launching the craft onto the sea, are not part of Christian tradition, & we only find Christian grave goods associated with them in societies where pre-Christian traditions have carried over. Also, the West as the place of Paradise originated in Pagan belief & played no part in Christian trradition, where the East (direction of sunrise) was seen as the 'sacred' direction - if any direction was 'sacred'.

Also, one has to take into account the 'invocation' of the four winds/four directions in the funeral song. I honestly can't see any 'Christian' element in the funeral, & the overall feel of the scene is far more reminiscent of Pagan customs. That said, I wouldn't argue that Tolkien was attempting to re-create a 'Pagan' send off, merely that if we look for resonances we will find more in Beowulf than we will in the Bible.

Boromir's death is less clearly 'Pagan', but I think the whole 'deathbed confession/absolution' thing has been pushed way too far by many commentators looking to 'prove' the 'Christian' nature of the work. Boromir does not ask for absolution. He acknowledges his fault in attempting to take the Ring - which one would expect from a warrior at his death, & he asks Aragorn to save his people. Effectively he admits he has done wrong & has paid the price - though its entirely possible to read his words as implying that his real failure in his own eyes was his failure to save his people - ie a tactical, rather than a moral, failure. The death scene may be interpretable in the way you imply, but I think that its more a case of 'applicability' - its not not Christian/Catholic, but that's a long way from saying it is Christian/Catholic. What I mean is, a reader who was only familiar with old legends & knew nothing about Catholic ritual/tradition is not going to read that scene & be left totally confused by what was happening. It makes perfect sense given what we know of the characters & the situation they have found themselves in.

But I digress....

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by davem

Boromir's death is less clearly 'Pagan', but I think the whole 'deathbed confession/absolution' thing has been pushed way too far by many commentators looking to 'prove' the 'Christian' nature of the work. Boromir does not ask for absolution. He acknowledges his fault in attempting to take the Ring - which one would expect from a warrior at his death, & he asks Aragorn to save his people. Effectively he admits he has done wrong & has paid the price - though its entirely possible to read his words as implying that his real failure in his own eyes was his failure to save his people - ie a tactical, rather than a moral, failure. The death scene may be interpretable in the way you imply, but I think that its more a case of 'applicability' - its not not Christian/Catholic, but that's a long way from saying it is Christian/Catholic. What I mean is, a reader who was only familiar with old legends & knew nothing about Catholic ritual/tradition is not going to read that scene & be left totally confused by what was happening. It makes perfect sense given what we know of the characters & the situation they have found themselves in.

Boromir's death can be seen as having Christian ties, as Boromir in his last words did give a confession. His death can also be seen as having pagan ties, like you pointed out. Neither of you are 100% correct. If you analyze something so hard looking for similarities, eventually you will find some on both ends. Boromir's funeral is just that - the funeral of Boromir. Why do you have to over analyze it?

[davem]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Boromir's death can be seen as having Christian ties, as Boromir in his last words did give a confession. His death can also be seen as having pagan ties, like you pointed out. Neither of you are 100% correct. If you analyze something so hard looking for similarities, eventually you will find some on both ends. Boromir's funeral is just that - the funeral of Boromir. Why do you have to over analyze it?

It is the funeral of Boromir, of course. The issue is one of Tolkien's sources, & of what he is trying to evoke.

Compare Boromir's funeral

Now they laid Boromir in the middle of the boat that was to bear him away. .... His helm they set beside him, and across his lap they laid the cloven horn and the hilt and shards of his sword; beneath his feet they put the swords of his enemies. Then fastening the prow to the stern of the other boat, they drew him out into the water. .... Sorrowfully they cast loose the funeral boat: there Boromir lay, restful, peaceful, gliding upon the bosom of the flowing water. The stream took him while they held their own boat back with their paddles. He floated by them, and slowly his boat departed, waning to a dark spot against the golden light; and then suddenly it vanished. Rauros roared on unchanging. The River had taken Boromir son of Denethor, and he was not seen again in Minas Tirith, standing as he used to stand upon the White Tower in the morning. But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars.

with Scyld Scefing's funeral from Beowulf:

þær æt hyðe stod hringedstefna,
In the roadstead rocked a ring-dight vessel,

isig ond utfus, æþelinges fær.
ice-flecked, outbound, atheling’s barge:

Aledon þa leofne þeoden,
there laid they down their darling lord

beaga bryttan, on bearm scipes,
on the breast of the boat, the breaker-of-rings,

mærne be mæste. þær wæs madma fela
by the mast the mighty one. Many a treasure

of feorwegum, frætwa, gelæded;
fetched from far was freighted with him.

ne hyrde ic cymlicor ceol gegyrwan
No ship have I known so nobly dight

hildewæpnum ond heaðowædum,
with weapons of war and weeds of battle,

billum ond byrnum; him on bearme læg
with breastplate and blade: on his bosom lay

madma mænigo, þa him mid scoldon
a heaped hoard that hence should go

on flodes æht feor gewitan.
far o’er the flood with him floating away.

Nalæs hi hine læssan lacum teodan,
No less these loaded the lordly gifts,

þeodgestreonum, þon þa dydon
thanes’ huge treasure, than those had done

þe hine æt frumsceafte forð onsendon
who in former time forth had sent him

ænne ofer yðe umborwesende.
sole on the seas, a suckling child.

þa gyt hie him asetton segen geldenne
High o’er his head they hoist the standard,

heah ofer heafod, leton holm beran,
a gold-wove banner; let billows take him,

geafon on garsecg; him wæs geomor sefa,
gave him to ocean. Grave were their spirits,

murnende mod. Men ne cunnon
mournful their mood. No man is able

secgan to soðe, selerædende,
to say in sooth, no son of the halls,

hæleð under heofenum, hwa þæm hlæste onfeng.
no hero ’neath heaven, — who harbored that freight!

[MatthewM]

I still think if you are looking to compare his death to a certain mold such as a Christian death or a Pagan death, you will eventually find similarities for both.

[davem]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

I still think if you are looking to compare his death to a certain mold such as a Christian death or a Pagan death, you will eventually find similarities for both.

I agree - the danger of confusing applicability & 'allegory' is ever present. One interprets events in the book as one will. Now...I think perhaps we should redirect this discussion to another thread, before we get too far away from the topic & the admins begin to stir....

[ArathornJax]

Another thing that I really picked up on in listening is the theme of the various roads that each party is meant to go on. Treebeard declares to Merry and Pippin that "Our roads go together - - to Isengard!"

Aragorn declared that "the fate of the bearer is not in his hands."

Gandalf tells Aragorn that Aragorn must go to Edoras as he is needed there.

Finally, the journey of Frodo and Sam become interwoven with Gollum on the road they take together.

I believe this goes back to that theme earlier found in The Black Riders:

Frodo:

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it join some larger way,
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.

Surely we see the joining of much larger ways where many paths and errands meet. Finally, from here where will it go, we don't know.

I don't know why, but this episode really brought these points together for me. I'm not sure if that was the intent, but surely we can see how the errands of Merry and Pippin with Treebeard; Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli with Gandalf going to Edoras; and Sam and Frodo going to Mordor while meeting a new guide in Gollum.