Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[Mithalwen]

Before the discussion moves on without me tomorrow, there are a couple of things I would like to add. Firstly that while Treebeard's first song is part of the plot, his second "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf" gives a hint of an unexplored vista as far as the adaptation is concerned. Very clever to please the book devotees by acknowledging the Entwives without slowing the action by talking about them. The hobbit / treebeard scenes also give great proof of what can be done with the voice alone. I don't know whether any "magic" was worked but it is just so clear that Treebeard is vastly older and bigger than the hobbits - who sound much more boyish by comparison (whereas their voices sound merely young with the other hobbits).

To go back to the death and funeral of Boromir, I don't want to start an argument but given that Tolkien was both a devout Catholic and extremely proud of his Viking heritage (ref Donald Swann's intro to "The Road goes ever on" we should not be suprised that it is possible to identify elements of both.

Boromir has the opportunity to make a "good death", he confesses and asks for forgiveness - and is reassured by Aragorn. I believe the Catholic church prefers burial to other methods of disposal of bodies but the English are a seafaring nation and sea burial has often been a necessity and is still a choice and perfectly acceptable to the Anglican church (one of the designated sea burial grounds is off the Isle Wight and you can see them leave, robed vicar and all, from our local jetty). Many others have their ashes scattered on the water so I would contest that it is not part of the Christian tradition. However Boromir's funeral is clearly Viking.

Much of Tolkiens creation can be seen as an attempt to reconcile his Catholic beliefs with his personal and professional interest in Norse culture and mythology. Aspects of both can be found; those with a particular interest will pick up o their side more, as someone at Oxonmoot 06 said that the Catholics saw hints of the final victory, pagans the long defeat. Neither side is going to get a knockout blow and trying for a points victory can be tiresome for the disinterested (nb I use disinterested NOT uninterested).

Before I digress totally in to something that belongs in books, I do think the manner of Boromir's death and funeral is significant because we will have the later contrasts of Theoden and Denethor's. The latter is specifically described as heathen in the books, whereas the former is another semi-Viking style since the interment in a barrow is not so far from a ship burial.

Boromir is also in his own way "taking ship" and passing into the west. The sea is so important to the stories of ME and to Tolkien (I think I have a thread coming on) that this can not be without significance. Think of Aragorn's words "Boromir has taken his road" a road may be on sea as well as land (cf the Straight Road).
The elements also have significance I think - dwarves lay their dead in stone, the orcs are consigned to ashes, elves go west .. not unfitting that one of good Numenorean blood is returned to the sea.

Finally the funeral boat is a practical solution. There are several references to disposing differently of friend and foe in the books and one in this episode - the burning of the orcs. There is the strong and recognisable desire to give a comrade a "decent" if not Christian ) burial. This was not possible so they commend him to the water - a routine practice til recently for those who died at sea too far from land.

Ramble over...

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Before the discussion moves on without me tomorrow, there are a couple of things I would like to add. Firstly that while Treebeard's first song is part of the plot, his second "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf" gives a hint of an unexplored vista as far as the adaptation is concerned. Very clever to please the book devotees by acknowledging the Entwives without slowing the action by talking about them. The hobbit / treebeard scenes also give great proof of what can be done with the voice alone. I don't know whether any "magic" was worked but it is just so clear that Treebeard is vastly older and bigger than the hobbits - who sound much more boyish by comparison (whereas their voices sound merely young with the other hobbits).

I'm not sure than Stephen Thorne's voice was treated in any way as Treebeard: he has a deep, mellifluous voice and I had first worked with Stephen in BBC Schools Radio where he appeared in various scripts of mine either as Jesus or the Voice of God! I later requested for him to play Aslan in my radio dramatisations of the Narnian Chronicles (a role he had already voiced in the animated version of TLTW&TW); he also played Chrysophylax Dives in the 'Farmer Giles of Ham' epidsodes of my Tales of the Perilous Realm.

What I do remember was that he was swathed around the neck with garlands of gash recording tape, so that he rustled whenever he moved and spoke!!

[Mithalwen]

How ingenious - I do hope you will reveal the secrets of the shelob squelch in due course!!!

[davem]

A digression...

We've had other threads exploring Tolkien's sources, so its probably not worth getting side-tracked too far into it here. My own feeling is that his 'sources' were almost entirely mythological (ie 'pagan'), though his treatment of them is often influenced by his own faith. For instance, the banner Arwen weaves for Aragorn -

The raven banner was also a standard used by the Norse Jarls of Orkney. According to the Orkneyinga Saga, it was made for Sigurd the Stout by his mother, a völva or sorceress. She told him that the banner would "bring victory to the man it's carried before, but death to the one who carries it." The saga describes the flag as "a finely made banner, very cleverly embroidered with the figure of a raven, and when the banner fluttered in the breeze, the raven seemed to be flying ahead." Sigurd's mother's prediction came true when, according to the sagas, all of the bearers of the standard met untimely ends. The "curse" of the banner ultimately fell on Jarl Sigurd himself at the Battle of Clontarf:

Earl Sigurd had a hard battle against Kerthialfad, and Kerthialfad came on so fast that he laid low all who were in the front rank, and he broke the array of Earl Sigurd right up to his banner, and slew the banner-bearer. Then he got another man to bear the banner, and there was again a hard fight. Kerthialfad smote this man too his death blow at once, and so on one after the other all who stood near him. Then Earl Sigurd called on Thorstein the son of Hall of Sida, to bear the banner, and Thorstein was just about to lift the banner, but then Asmund the White said, "Don't bear the banner! For all they who bear it get their death." "Hrafn the Red!" called out Earl Sigurd, "bear thou the banner." "Bear thine own devil thyself," answered Hrafn. Then the earl said, "`Tis fittest that the beggar should bear the bag;'" and with that he took the banner from the staff and put it under his cloak. A little after Asmund the White was slain, and then the earl was pierced through with a spear.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner

A 'raven' banner which brings victory to the man its carried before but death to the one who bears it is certainly reminiscent of the banner Arwen wove for Aragorn - it brought him victory, but its bearer (Halbarad) died on the Pelennor.

So, the banner Arwen weaves is not 'cursed' in the same way (as far as we know) as the raven banner woven by Jarl Sigurd's mother is, yet, I think its clear that the one iepisode is 'influenced' by the other. In the same way, I think (just as the entry into Edoras of Gandalf, et al, which we will see in the next episode, is influenced by the arrival of Beowulf & his thegns in the poem) Scyld's funeral is behind Boromir's. This is not about starting an argument between Christians & non-Christians, but about source analysis, & the 'echoes' which Tolkien is setting up. For any reader familiar with the literature Tolkien loved its difficult not to be reminded of them when reading his fiction. As I've said, I don't see Boromir's last words as a 'Confession' in the Catholic sense :

Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid." His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty at least lay there. "They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them." He paused and his eyes closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again. "Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed." 'No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!" Boromir smiled. "Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?" said Aragorn. But Boromir did not speak again.

though of course Tolkien may have done. He stated there is no overt references to 'religious' practices in the story (or something along those lines), but that the religious element has been absorbed into the story. So, those who perceive a Catholic/Christian dimension are perfectly entitled to do so as far as I'm concerned. This (for me at least) is simply about pointing up the sources Tolkien drew on, not arguing over the way individual readers interpret particular incidents. Of course, one can choose to interpret Boromir's final words as a 'confession' & request for absolution, but I'm not aware of a particular incident in a Biblical/Christian writing that could be cited as a 'source' for Boromir's death in the way that we can find clear Pagan/mythological/Saga sources for so many of the events in the story.

EDIT - its possible to argue that Tolkien's faith comes through in the way he uses some of his sources & gives the heroic 'ideal' a negative twist (Denethor's 'heathen' behaviour is a classic example, & is probably also based on accounts like those of Ibn Fadlan's about pagan Rus funeral practices

Ibn Fadlan describes the hygiene of the Rūsiyyah as disgusting (while also noting with some astonishment that they comb their hair every day) and considers them vulgar and unsophisticated. In that, his impressions contradict those of the Persian traveler Ibn Rustah. He also describes in great detail the funeral of one of their chieftains (a ship burial involving human sacrifice). Some scholars believe that it took place in the modern Balymer complex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Fadlan[1]

Digression ends.... On to episode 7 tomorrow

[ArathornJax]

Ok, my last point on this then on to the next section.

Why I said that Boromir's funeral could be argued not to be pagan is because of my knowledge of Viking/Norse burial customs among other things.

My point comes down to the notion of Norse paganism. Did the Norse use ships to bury their dead? Yes, usually great chieftons, members of the aristocracy or kings who had the wherewithal to afford this burial. Ships were not cheap and they were labor intensive, and more often than not were left to the heirs. Your average warrior was not buried in a ship but in a mound (and it could have a ship outline like at Lindholm Hoje in Jutland). Villagers were usually buried in mounds in a communal graveyard of their village. Local farmers were usually buried near their farms and aristocracy near their dwellings so remaining family and descendants could maintain contact with their ancestors.

Goods were provided to the dead, usually based on occupation. If you were a merchant, scales were included as well as other items you did in daily life. A warrior would also be buried with their shield (or shields), sword, ax, spear and any other weapon they used. In all cases some mode of transportation was buried with the deceased, a wagon (especially for wealthy women in Denmark), horse(s), ox(en) or cow/cattle. A method of transportation was given because the Norse believed that to get to the afterlife was a journey, and transportation would be needed. Food was also buried (based on the season on the year), and other items that the deceased would need in their journey to the afterlife, or for their stay in Hel which was rather boring.

The notion that all or many Norse were buried in ships or even in ship mounds is false. More common than not, most were simply buried in mounds. In terms of cremation and having that done in a ship that is by far more common with the Swedes (those Viking from that geographic area) then with the Danes or Norwegian Vikings. Ibn Fadhlan gives the best description of a Viking cremation with a longship. Also, it depends on the era of history on whether cremation was used. During the Roman period of history, cremation was used very frequently in all regions of Scandinavia. During the Viking period of 700 to 1100 C.E. burial methods and rituals depended on geographic area and local traditions and customs.

So based on this, what IS pagan about Boromir's death? The use of a boat is usually considered, and I can accept it (to a point). However, I do feel that there is a valid argument that in Norse/pagan culture, the boat would have been used to transport Boromir to the afterlife. In LOTR there is no mention that men needed transportation to wherever men go, beyond the Halls of Mandos, or a belief by the people of Gondor in such a practice particularly. The kings of Gondor and the Stewards were laid in tombs in Minis Tirith, and Tolkien in an interview said they are more like the Egyptians in Gondor in how they deal with their dead (grand tombs etc). When Theoden is slain, Snowmane is buried on the Field of the Pelannor and not with Theoden. Theoden himself comes the closest in my mind to a true Norse or pagan burial where he is "laid in a house of stone with his arms and many other fair things he had possessed, and a mound was raised over him." It is possible then to say that perhaps the men of Middle Earth did not have the belief of needing transportation and that is why it is missing. This though would also support my notion that this is not a pagan burial but one of necessity.

Thus though using a boat may be considered a pagan symbol, I feel it can be argued that in this case, it is not. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli used the boat for ease, and so that Boromir's body would not be despoiled. Boromir was laid in the boat with his weapons and personal items. Is that Norse or pagan influenced? I could agree that it is. Overall though, I just feel that Boromir's funeral is one of ease/necessity for the 3 hunters who were pressed for time. They did their best to honor their companion, which is heroic. Tom Shippey has pointed out, it is that heroic nobility that linked myth with history and Christianity which Tolkien loved.

So in the end, I think any reader can determine what they want, whether there are elements of a "last rites" in Boromirs confession to Aragorn, or if there are pagan or Norse rites in his funeral. For me, it may have some pagan and some Christian elements, but it is really a funeral of necessity and done in a way that is heroic in honoring their fallen comrade. I look forward to our "new" discussion this week as we begin moving toward Isengard and Ilithien.

[davem]

I'm not going to be able to do episode 7 today as I promised - me & the missus are too busy . And to be honest it will probably be 2 or 3 days before we can get round to it, as we have the in-laws turning up tomorrow for a visit.....

So, you'll have to wait for my intro ..... or, if anyone wants to volunteer themselves & start off the discussion for this one (I doubt you could do worse than me....) please go ahead & we'll jump in later.

This one should be interesting as it has the first big battle (how well does it work on radio - & could it have been done differently? Its also our introduction proper to the court of Edoras. This is one of my favourite parts of both the book & this adaptation - Eowyn is a fantastic creation, a potential Aethelflaed - but would Tolkien ever have gone so far as to have a queen of Rohan ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethelflaed

[ArathornJax]

Sorry I am almost done listening to this week's session and am behind because of it being end of term and I am trying to get finals and other stuff in prior to the deadline. Anyway, if no one else posts a review by tomorrow when I have more time, then I'll start it off.