Why destroy Laketown's bridge?

[Sauron the White]

from Rikae

Here, you ask Mac if he thinks the railing would restrain Smaug if he "lost his balance". Are you arguing that Smaug would be just as surefooted in the process of landing as he would while walking? Sure, that's possible - but the point is, it is also quite possible he wasn't, and the this makes more sense in the light of the text itself.

Given the age of Smaug, given the number of landings he has executed in his long lifetime, given the very flat and wide nature of the docks..... yes Rikae, I think he would be just as surefooted in landing on the docks as he would walking across a bridge ... and I would add especially a bridge that he would be met with resistance upon.

from Bethberry

Who stated we wanted to ignore the illustration? Who said we should pretend it does not exist?

Several have said to use the text and not the illustrations. Here is a very clear one.

from davem today at 2:12 on this very page

So, forget the illustrations

and from davem yesterday

As to the picture, it is wrong

I am pretty sure that if there was an illustration of 100 townspeople dynamiting the Laketown bridge it certainly would have been used to try and disprove my main point. But since the illustration by JRRT shows a substantial bridge supported by numerous and thick pylons and supports my point that it is not easily thrown down and destroyed we get the convenient call to forget the illustrations.

[Sauron the White]

from Macalaure

Glaurung was killed by one of the greatest men in ME-history - who had to hide and surprise-attack him. We are not told that any other dragon has ever lost his life (prior to the War of Wrath, that is).

Yes, that is true. It is also true that he is one of greatest men in ME history because he did perform that deed. Perhaps if someone in Laketown they would establish their storied reputation? But that is speculation. I find it interesting that some of the topography of Laketown would offer much the same opportunity as was available to Turin. The town had canals and smaller bridges and when Smaug stepped across a smart armed man could have attempted the same thing as Turin did. At least it was possible should the situation present itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron
please.... Please.... PLEASE ...... somebody just quote directly from Tolkien in the text where it clearly says that
SMAUGS INTENT WAS TO ENTER LAKETOWN ON FOOT.
I beg you. I implore you. I humbly ask of you. Show me that in black and white.

Rikae has just given it. The text says that due to the destroying of the bridges, he was foiled. This directly implies that the bridges had some vital part in the then foiled plans of Smaug. What this vital part is, is left unclear. We suggest that he intended to walk over it. We say that this is the only valid conclusion, because there doesn't seem to be any other conceivable use for it. This is as much of a proof we can give you.

You say it isn't so. If you do not accept it, then what other conclusion do you draw?

With all due respect - NO she did not. What she provided was more conjecture and supposition based on how she sees and reads the text. I agree that Smaug had plans for the bridge. What were those plans I do not know. It is possible that he wanted to destroy it himself just for the satisfaction of it. It is possible he saw the bridge as a way to trap hundreds of fleeing people and get them all in one very convenient place. Nothing in the text indicates otherwise. It merely says Smaug was foiled in his plans but we know nothing of what they were.

Although we are told that he greatly enjoyed the game of killing and hunting the people and intended to do that to those who escaped. Perhaps killing those trying to also escape by bridge was just the first round in his cat and mouse game? I really do not know for a fact and neither does anyone else.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I agree that Smaug had plans for the bridge. What were those plans I do not know. It is possible that he wanted to destroy it himself just for the satisfaction of it. It is possible he saw the bridge as a way to trap hundreds of fleeing people and get them all in one very convenient place. Nothing in the text indicates otherwise. It merely says Smaug was foiled in his plans but we know nothing of what they were.

Although we are told that he greatly enjoyed the game of killing and hunting the people and intended to do that to those who escaped. Perhaps killing those trying to also escape by bridge was just the first round in his cat and mouse game? I really do not know for a fact and neither does anyone else.

Just one question (and I think I already asked it and didn't get an answer) - if this was the case, how is the fact that his enemies are now "on an island in deep water too deep and dark and cool for his liking" relevant? Why did Tolkien include that in the second half of the sentence, according to your theory?
Furthermore, why add "if he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through" if all he had in mind was a cat-and-mouse game involving the bridge (why would there be any question of him "plunging into" or "passing through" the water at all in that case?) Why explain, that is, why he can't risk falling into the water or pass through it, if that were never an issue anyway?

[Quempel]

Why would Smaug need to land at all? I have never understood why he would need to land at all. Of course I am thinking that stealth bombers actually do better in the air than on land. I don't know if that is a fair comparison, but if I could breath fire, destroy towns and fly, I wouldn't be caught walking across a bridge.

[Sauron the White]

here is the description by JRRT in the text

A great bridge made of wood ran out to where on huge piles made of forest trees was built a busy wooden town, not a town of elves but of Men, who still dared to dwell here under the shadow of the distant dragonmountain.

Macaluare asks

About the picture: If it wouldn't show something which is contradicting to the book, nobody would be willing to discard it. You seem to try to use the picture in order to disprove the book, which is - I'm sorry - ridiculous.

You claim that the picture contradicts the text. Could you take the above description by JRRT and explain where it contradicts what he shows in the picture because I see no such problem or difficulty.

from Rikae

Just one question (and I think I already asked it and didn't get an answer) - if this was the case, how is the fact that his enemies are now "on an island in deep water too deep and dark and cool for his liking" relevant? Why did Tolkien include that in the second half of the sentence, according to your theory?

I have no "theory" about what that passage means.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

You claim that the picture contradicts the text. Could you take the above description by JRRT and explain where it contradicts what he shows in the picture because I see no such problem or difficulty.

That, as you probably well know, is not the part of the text it appears to contradict (that part being the destruction of the bridge in little time).

I have no "theory" about what that passage means.

So you argue against our explanation of the passage by explaining the first part and ignoring the second, about which you have "no 'theory'". Thank you for making that clear.
(Or are you, with the scare quotes, suggesting that you have no 'theory', but rather access to some sort of "fact" about why Tolkien brought up the issue of plunging into the water?)

[davem]

Originally Posted by Quempel

Why would Smaug need to land at all? I have never understood why he would need to land at all. Of course I am thinking that stealth bombers actually do better in the air than on land. I don't know if that is a fair comparison, but if I could breath fire, destroy towns and fly, I wouldn't be caught walking across a bridge.

Anglo-Saxon warriors rode into battle & then fought on foot. Even against enemy cavalry they would dismount, set up their shield wall & literally stand their ground. You may as well ask why, if they had horses they wouldn't use them in battle. They didn't use them because that wasn't the way they fought. Now, it may well be that Dragons, being originally earth-bound, naturally fought on foot & if they had the option only used their wings to get from A to B....or it may not. The point though, is that the mere fact that dragons had the capability of aerial assault doesn't mean they would choose to fight in that way.

Going back to the first mention of Smaug's attack on the Lonely Mountain we find:

One day he flew up into the air and came south. The first we heard of it was a noise like a hurricane coming from the North, and the pine-trees on the Mountain creaking and cracking in the wind. Some of the dwarves who happened to be outside (I was one luckily a fine adventurous lad in those days, always wandering about, and it saved my life that day) - well, from a good way off we saw the dragon settle on our mountain in a spout of flame. Then he came down the slopes and when he reached the woods they all went up in fire. A Long Expected Party

Smaug flies to the mountain, lands on it, & then comes down the slopes & sets the woods on fire. I take that to mean that he landed & then crawled down. The alternative, that he landed, then took off & flew down to the woods doesn't make sense - why land on the mountain-top at all - why not just fly to the woods directly?

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I have no "theory" about what that passage means.

Ok - but what do you think it means?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by davem

Smaug flies to the mountain, lands on it, & then comes down the slopes & sets the woods on fire. I take that to mean that he landed & then crawled down. The alternative, that he landed, then took off & flew down to the woods doesn't make sense - why land on the mountain-top at all - why not just fly to the woods directly?

Excellent point. Not to mention that "came down the slopes" doesn't sound the least bit like it describes flight.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Sauron

You claim that the picture contradicts the text. Could you take the above description by JRRT and explain where it contradicts what he shows in the picture because I see no such problem or difficulty.

Like I said before, you're only regarding the quotes that support your view and disregard everything else.

The view I (and almost all others) presented is the only plausible one, despite all you said. If your only point is that no statement can be made, and that Tolkien isn't beyond all contrivable doubt clear in what he says, then have it.

[Sauron the White]

davem & others
the faults on one picture do not apply to the picture of a different subject.

The behavior of Smaug - and some of that behavior is inferred by you - does not mean he behaved like that in each and every case.

One does not prove or disprove the other.

You push on my meaning of this ... okay .... your wish is my command

what does this mean

"on an island in deep water too deep and dark and cool for his liking"

It means that Smaug did not like water. So its easy to then see that he would want to be as far away from it as possible. Thus, an attack for the air was his preferred mode of attack and would not land being closer to the water.

Happy now?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

It means that Smaug did not like water. So its easy to then see that he would want to be as far away from it as possible. Thus, an attack for the air was his preferred mode of attack and would not land being closer to the water.

Happy now?

Amid shrieks and wailing and the shouts of men he came over them, swept towards the bridges and was foiled! The bridge was gone, and his enemies were on an island in deep water too deep and dark and cool for his liking.

In what way, then, was he 'foiled' by the destruction of the bridge(s)? The implication is that he couldn't get to his 'enemies' as he first intended - because they were on an island in deep water.

[Macalaure]

It means that Smaug did not like water. So its easy to then see that he would want to be as far away from it as possible. Thus, an attack for the air was his preferred mode of attack and would not land being closer to the water.

Happy now?

You are aware that that quote comes after Smaug found the bridges destroyed? Therefore, it was his preferred mode of attack after whatever mysterious mode of attack he had in mind before. You will find nobody disagreeing on that.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

In what way, then, was he 'foiled' by the destruction of the bridge(s)? The implication is that he couldn't get to his 'enemies' as he first intended - because they were on an island in deep water.

As I have said in several places here, because JRRT does not tell us in what Smaug was foiled in, its all conjecture and speculation. What is my speculation?
Smaug could have intended to destroy the bridge himself for sheer enjoyment and was thus foiled in that plan.
Smaug could have intended to trap fleeing townspeople on the bridge and had hopes of incinerating many with one quick blast and was foiled in that plan.

And, as I have repeatedly said, if it was his intention to go on the island he had ample space on the docks which are clearly even wider than the bridge. He did not do so.

You infer that he intended to cross the bridge to justify the order to destroy the bridges. Even though that order is somewhat silly and poor military strategy against a fire breathing creature who is attacking you from the air.

Its poorly, planned out and poorly written. Burn me at the stake for that. I have no doubt that if this were LOTR, JRRT would have fully fleshed it out so that it made sense.

[McCaber]

I'd rather have a dragon attack from the air where he can only burn. On the ground he can burn the same buildings as from the air, destroy them directly, and feed on the townsfolk.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

from davem
As I have said in several places here, because JRRT does not tell us in what Smaug was foiled in, its all conjecture and speculation. What is my speculation?
Smaug could have intended to destroy the bridge himself for sheer enjoyment and was thus foiled in that plan.
Smaug could have intended to trap fleeing townspeople on the bridge and had hopes of incinerating many with one quick blast and was foiled in that plan.

And, as several people have repeatedly said, this THEORY completly ignores the second half of the passage.

Originally Posted by STW

And, as I have repeatedly said, if it was his intention to go on the island he had ample space on the docks which are clearly even wider than the bridge. He did not do so.

And you have been repeatedly told why you cannot base such an assumption on the picture alone, especially where the text would suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by STW

You infer that he intended to cross the bridge to justify the order to destroy the bridges. Even though that order is somewhat silly and poor military strategy against a fire breathing creature who is attacking you from the air.

One thing you forgot to mention - he actually attacked from the air after the bridges were destroyed, and after he was oh-so-mysteriously foiled by this. While the bridges were being destroyed he was getting from point A to point B through the air.

Originally Posted by STW

Its poorly, planned out and poorly written. Burn me at the stake for that. I have no doubt that if this were LOTR, JRRT would have fully fleshed it out so that it made sense.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Excuse me for not burning you at the stake, but I have a five page essay on Browning due yesterday and three misbehaving children to deal with, so you'll just have to go without your martyrdom for the time being.

[Bêthberry]

After all this downing of the Bridge, I hope you won't be drowning in the Browning paper, Rikae.

yes indeed; it's not The Boxer; it is The Dangling Conversation.

But I did appreciate the small refrain of Bridge Over Troubled Waters which two of our members played.

And I want everyone to know that I could not find one pair of Lord of The Rings boxers. I found Star wars ones, and Harry Potter ones, and Shrek ones, but not one having anything to do with Tolkien. The Welsh dragon was the closest.

[Rumil]

Evenin' all,

at the risk of putting the cat firmly back amongst the pigeons (or should I say Dragon amonst the Lakemen), I believe the bridge as shown in the drawing of Laketown (somewhere a few pages ago, you know, the first one) is easily 'cut-able'.

From the side view illustration the bridge seems impressively stoutly constructed. However, no top-view is shown. Therefore it is as likely as not that the 'road surface' along the bridge is made of big planks (I can see no other practical alternative). By all means good solid planks the size of railway sleepers indeed, but planks all the same.

Now IF these are laid across the supporting beams and not 'tied in' to the rest of the structure by being jointed or nailed (which is, I think, entirely plausible, for obvious defensive purposes), then you could quite easily get a gang of chaps, or indeed chapesses, to lever them up with crowbars and chuck them over the side of the bridge. One could even simply drag the planks back to the town-end if desired.

Although this would not stop individual people precariously making their way across the framework in single file (such as at Worcester in 1651), I think that it would make it very difficult for Smaug to get across. Therefore the bridge would be 'cut' (in the same way as one 'cuts' a road) and the bridge planks would be 'thrown down'. Et voila! From Smaug's point of view the town is now effectively an island.

PS. Is someone running this thread for a bet?

[LadyBrooke]

*Timidly pokes head in*

Looking at the picutre of the one bridge, it seems to me there is one other solution that nobody has mentioned yet. The half closest to the town is very strong and thick looking, but as it gets closer to the shore it gradually becomes smaller. I live about 20 miles from one of the biggest rivers in the country, and there are several old bridges near here. When one of them became too run down to be useable instead of destroying the whole bridge (which would have been costly and dangerous due to the large pillars) they only destroyed the smaller end sections which kept anybody from driving onto it.

Assuming that the bridge in the picture is over a mile long, it seems to me that just destroying the end closest to the shore would have prevented Smaug from walking over it. Laketown might as well be an island if the first fifth of the bridge is missing.

*pulls head back quickly*

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

After all this downing of the Bridge, I hope you won't be drowning in the Browning paper, Rikae.

Personally, I am hoping for an abridged version of this whole conversation.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

yes indeed; it's not The Boxer; it is The Dangling Conversation.

But I did appreciate the small refrain of Bridge Over Troubled Waters which two of our members played.

Not wishing to go too far afield, but I saw Simon and Garfunkel on their reunion tour in the mid-90's, and I will say that it is one of the best concerts I've ever seen. Garfunkel's rendition of BOTW was great! So was Scarborough Fair.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And I want everyone to know that I could not find one pair of Lord of The Rings boxers. I found Star wars ones, and Harry Potter ones, and Shrek ones, but not one having anything to do with Tolkien. The Welsh dragon was the closest.

Ummm...would Hobbitish underwear be described as briefs?

Sorry for the digression from this fascinating discussion, but I said all that was necessary regarding this diatribe many posts ago (from my point of view, of course).

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Sauron

given the very flat and wide nature of the docks

We seem to have a different kind of perception. If I look at the illustrations, I do not see docks that are very wide. I see docks that, without the houses and the close vicinity to water, would be just wide enough for him to land.

About the picture: If it wouldn't show something which is contradicting to the book, nobody would be willing to discard it. You seem to try to use the picture in order to disprove the book, which is - I'm sorry - ridiculous.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

from Bethberry

Several have said to use the text and not the illustrations. Here is a very clear one.

from davem today at 2:12 on this very page

I am pretty sure that if there was an illustration of 100 townspeople dynamiting the Laketown bridge it certainly would have been used to try and disprove my main point. But since the illustration by JRRT shows a substantial bridge supported by numerous and thick pylons and supports my point that it is not easily thrown down and destroyed we get the convenient call to forget the illustrations.

Hmmm. Hummm. Harrroooom. Let us not be hasty in condemning these calls about the reliablity of the pictures. You seem to have overlooked some of the reasons given.

davem points out that perspective is wrong in one illustration.

Tiny Bilbo

Perhaps the next step is to examine and cross examine all of Tolkien's illustrations to see if this characteristic is present in the entire spectrum of Tolkien's illustrations. And then we could discuss the merits of perspective per se. But davem's call was based on some evidence.

Ibrin provides a quotation from Tolkien himself, from the Letters:

My own pictures are an unsafe guide.

That tag for the link is a quotation from Tolkien; Ibrin says it is in Letter #27. Perhaps someone could check to verify if she has quoted it correctly and fairly and within context? I'll reiterate the full quotation from Tolkien just so we can see what reason she offerred for suggesting that the illustrations do not have authorial authority:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Letter #27, apparently

I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. My own pictures are an unsafe guide.

Oh, but wait! This was written in relation to Tolkien's ability to draw hobbits, not in relation to his ability to draw landscapes. Funny, I seem to recall several of Tolkien's landscapes which lack perspective or depth. But perhaps we need an Art Historian to provide a reliable evaluation of Tolkien's illustrations, as the man himself obviously was too humble and modest about his talents.

So therefore, based on the examples of these two posters, davem and Ibrin (the latter of whom StW completely ignored) would appear that the arguments of only one person at least fall into this category:

Originally Posted by StW

It reminds me of songwriter Paul Simons observation:

Simon & Garfunkel "The Boxer"

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And as for Boxers and Dragons, well, let us enjoy ourselves with contemplating these possibilities: