''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring''

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Saying the name of a 'Wizard' out loud was traditionally considered a bad move in some cultures, as it somehow focussed their attention on you, even at a considerable distance. I can't offhand think of anywhere where this is clearly stated in LoTR but might have been at the back of the Prof's mind when he was writing this?

I think there is indeed meant to be a version of this belief in Middle-earth; look at the way the the Men of Gondor call Sauron "the Nameless One".

Originally Posted by Morthoron

They were resting before a journey that might have taken all their lives. This was not some trivial comedic romp, and so boo-hoo the poor hobbits were prevented from making ignorant jests.

To nitpick: this was prior to the Council of Elrond , so the question of what to do with the Ring had not been settled. What Gandalf could be certain of was that the Ring was dangerous and that a major war was coming– which would affect the hobbits along with everyone else.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Hobbits really had no reckoning about the true power of Sauron. Gandalf, as both a leader and father-figure to the young hobbits, had every right to put Pippin in his place.

And Gandalf doesn't appear to be saying it in anger (even though we know he is capable of this). I think he's meant to be rightly concerned that Pippin doesn't take the situation seriously enough.


Mansun, you have me perplexed. You cited this quote (from The White Rider) as an example of Gandalf indulging in light-hearted whimsy about the prospect of Sauron torturing the hobbits:

But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower.

When I asked you what on earth you thought was so lighthearted about it, you responded with this quote (from Many Meetings):

Gandalf has been saying many cheerful things like that.

Now, that's Pippin's reply to the quote from Gandalf that started this thread. It has nothing to do with the other quote from The White Rider. Yet your placement of it suggests that it's meant to be an answer to my question.

Explain, please.

EDIT: Look, if you use quotes to support your argument, it's best to explain why they support it. What is self-evident to you may seem like a complete non sequitur to someone else.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Saying the name of a 'Wizard' out loud was traditionally considered a bad move in some cultures, as it somehow focussed their attention on you, even at a considerable distance. I can't offhand think of anywhere where this is clearly stated in LoTR but might have been at the back of the Prof's mind when he was writing this?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think there is indeed meant to be a version of this belief in Middle-earth; look at the way the the Men of Gondor call Sauron "the Nameless One".

I believe it came into vogue in the Dark Ages (circa the 10th Century):

ARTHUR:
Cut down a tree with a herring? It can't be done.
KNIGHTS OF NI:
Aaaaugh! Aaaugh!
HEAD KNIGHT:
Augh! Ohh! Don't say that word.
ARTHUR:
What word?
HEAD KNIGHT:
I cannot tell, suffice to say is one of the words the Knights of Ni cannot hear.
ARTHUR:
How can we not say the word if you don't tell us what it is?
KNIGHTS OF NI:
Aaaaugh!
HEAD KNIGHT:
You said it again!
ARTHUR:
What, 'is'?
KNIGHTS OF NI:
Agh! No, not 'is'.
HEAD KNIGHT:
No, not 'is'. You wouldn't get very far in life not saying 'is'.

Ummm...sorry, the thread was getting unnecessarily heavy.

But anyway, there are plenty of folk traditions against referring to the devil or god aloud (or speaking 'ill of the dead', for instance). There was a prohibition among the Israelites (and Jews afterwards) against speaking the real name of God (Tetragrammaton), and there have been similar superstitions elsewhere against speaking the real name of the devil (hence slang like Scratch, and Old Nick), and in Ireland, if one must speak of the Daoine Sidhe or the Faery Folk at all (which is not wise to do in any case), then one should say "'gentry', or else daoine maithe, which in English means good people" according to Yeats.

I'm sure such traditions might have been considered by Tolkien and used in one form or another (such as the Noldor no longer saying the name 'Melkor' and only referring to him as 'Morgoth').