''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring''

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

No imminent danger exists? At this point, they do not know what became of all of the Nazgul, who are at their most dangerous when they are unclad. Frodo should not have survived his wounding with the Morgul knife, and though he did, can anyone in Rivendell say precisely WHY he did not? Do they yet know for certain that this is simply because of Frodo's "hobbit tenacity," or because of some design of the Ring itself? And there is the very imminent and immediate danger in the very presence of that Ring in Rivendell. Gandalf we know has felt its pull, and though he has refused it, does not trust himself to touch it again -- do we know how others would fare in the presence of that danger? We know that it was in Rivendell that Boromir first saw the Ring and began to desire it -- who else might have felt that same desire? The very presence of the Ring is a terrible danger, and to make light of it is potentially offering an invitation for it to start looking for a new bearer in the person who might not consider it dangerous, and would not be so careful in protecting it. In my opinion, Gandalf is not being a wet blanket because he is a gloomy, snarky person; he is demonstrating concern for Pippin, because of his affection for him. It is noted by Tolkien that one of Gandalf's shortcomings is a quick temper for the rebuking of folly, and after spending a good long while as Saruman's prisoner because of Saruman's lust for the Ring (a thing that he, unlike Pippin, has never seen nor even been its presence), any apparent flippancy regarding the Ring would likely seem to him the worst of folly. I believe that Gandalf acts as he does because he fears for the hobbits, who are comparatively young and inexperienced, and he feels it is better to risk getting a reputation as someone gloomy and grumpy than it is to let them (or anyone, for that matter) treat too lightly something that is a danger to their entire world. They may be sitting in a fortress inside Rivendell, but in bringing the Ring within that fortress, they have brought with them the very heart of their enemy -- and it would be best not to stir that heart unnecessarily. IMHO, of course.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

No imminent danger exists? At this point, they do not know what became of all of the Nazgul, who are at their most dangerous when they are unclad. Frodo should not have survived his wounding with the Morgul knife, and though he did, can anyone in Rivendell say precisely WHY he did not? Do they yet know for certain that this is simply because of Frodo's "hobbit tenacity," or because of some design of the Ring itself? And there is the very imminent and immediate danger in the very presence of that Ring in Rivendell. Gandalf we know has felt its pull, and though he has refused it, does not trust himself to touch it again -- do we know how others would fare in the presence of that danger? We know that it was in Rivendell that Boromir first saw the Ring and began to desire it -- who else might have felt that same desire? The very presence of the Ring is a terrible danger, and to make light of it is potentially offering an invitation for it to start looking for a new bearer in the person who might not consider it dangerous, and would not be so careful in protecting it. In my opinion, Gandalf is not being a wet blanket because he is a gloomy, snarky person; he is demonstrating concern for Pippin, because of his affection for him. It is noted by Tolkien that one of Gandalf's shortcomings is a quick temper for the rebuking of folly, and after spending a good long while as Saruman's prisoner because of Saruman's lust for the Ring (a thing that he, unlike Pippin, has never seen nor even been its presence), any apparent flippancy regarding the Ring would likely seem to him the worst of folly. I believe that Gandalf acts as he does because he fears for the hobbits, who are comparatively young and inexperienced, and he feels it is better to risk getting a reputation as someone gloomy and grumpy than it is to let them (or anyone, for that matter) treat too lightly something that is a danger to their entire world. They may be sitting in a fortress inside Rivendell, but in bringing the Ring within that fortress, they have brought with them the very heart of their enemy -- and it would be best not to stir that heart unnecessarily. IMHO, of course.

Gandalf said to Frodo that they were all safe for the present in Rivendell. The Nine would not have been able to enter the House of Elrond, and I doubt they would dare to. No imminent danger existed, except perhaps paranoia or complacency. Sauron would not have sent an army to Rivendell anytime soon, having a small matter of Gondor and other enemies to contend with first. Isengard was no match for Rivendell, of course.

If Gandalf was as hot-headed against folly as you say, what stopped him from sending home the foolish Pippin?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Sauron doesn't need to send an army, nor Isengard. Physical safety is not the issue when the biggest danger is that of corruption from within. As we see later in RotK ("The Pyre of Denethor"):

"'Work of the Enemy!' said Gandalf. 'Such deeds he loves: friend at war with friend, loyalty divided in the confusion of hearts.'"

Now or later, that trait of Sauron, the Base Deceiver, remains. The Ring is in Rivendell, as the palantir is in Minas Tirith, a more potent device of the Enemy, potentially able to spark dissent and confusion even more surely than the palantir. To the unwary and prideful, the Ring is, I believe, always a clear and present danger, no matter the location. Galadriel's temptation and moment of crisis came, after all, in the very heart of her own realm. It was no protection from the lure of the Ring; it was her personal strength, gained from thousands of years of experience which provided that. When it came to allowing Merry and Pippin to be part of the Company, Gandalf himself admitted that he did not see the path ahead clearly, and yet felt moved to think it wiser to trust to their friendship rather than to wisdom. As we know, that presentiment turned out to be a good one, since even Pippin's foolish acts eventually led to some key events in the outcome of the war. But for his dropping of the stone in Moria, Gandalf might not have faced and defeated the Balrog, died, and returned in a more powerful form. But for Pippin stealing the palantir to have a look at it, Aragorn might not have reclaimed it at a point when his act made Sauron fear that he had the Ring, and thus pushed him to begin his war too soon. Gandalf's impatience with foolishness is his own character flaw, and one that I believe makes him more believable, more "human." If he never made mistakes, never had doubts, never said things he later regretted, he would be too perfect, and thus, I think, not as interesting.

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions and interpretations, of course, and on some things, I believe it is wiser to simply agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Sauron doesn't need to send an army, nor Isengard. Physical safety is not the issue when the biggest danger is that of corruption from within. As we see later in RotK ("The Pyre of Denethor"):



Now or later, that trait of Sauron, the Base Deceiver, remains. The Ring is in Rivendell, as the palantir is in Minas Tirith, a more potent device of the Enemy, potentially able to spark dissent and confusion even more surely than the palantir. To the unwary and prideful, the Ring is, I believe, always a clear and present danger, no matter the location. Galadriel's temptation and moment of crisis came, after all, in the very heart of her own realm. It was no protection from the lure of the Ring; it was her personal strength, gained from thousands of years of experience which provided that. When it came to allowing Merry and Pippin to be part of the Company, Gandalf himself admitted that he did not see the path ahead clearly, and yet felt moved to think it wiser to trust to their friendship rather than to wisdom. As we know, that presentiment turned out to be a good one, since even Pippin's foolish acts eventually led to some key events in the outcome of the war. But for his dropping of the stone in Moria, Gandalf might not have faced and defeated the Balrog, died, and returned in a more powerful form. But for Pippin stealing the palantir to have a look at it, Aragorn might not have reclaimed it at a point when his act made Sauron fear that he had the Ring, and thus pushed him to begin his war too soon. Gandalf's impatience with foolishness is his own character flaw, and one that I believe makes him more believable, more "human." If he never made mistakes, never had doubts, never said things he later regretted, he would be too perfect, and thus, I think, not as interesting.

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions and interpretations, of course, and on some things, I believe it is wiser to simply agree to disagree.

If Gandalf was so worried about Ring corruption over Pippin's comments, he may as well have sent the Ring into the Great Sea, where no hand would be able to use the Ring for thousands of years. Reading too much into small details can lead to gross exageration of a situation that is relatively low key. In any event, Gandalf answered to Elrond, and not the other way round. What can and cannot be said in his own house is his choice alone, the Master of Rivendell.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Mansun

If Gandalf was so worried about Ring corruption over Pippin's comments, he may as well have sent the Ring into the Great Sea, where no hand would be able to use the Ring for thousands of years.

That would have been the very definition of foolishness. Just as it was lost for centuries on the river bottom of the Anduin, by the Gladden Fields, it would lie at the bottom of the sea and would have eventually have been found. The Ring has a will of it's own, it's not a dead artifact!

Originally Posted by Mansun

Reading too much into small details can lead to gross exageration of a situation that is relatively low key. In any event, Gandalf answered to Elrond, and not the other way round. What can and cannot be said in his own house is his choice alone, the Master of Rivendell.

However, they respected each others opinions. Just as Elrond scolded Gandalf for speaking of the inscription on the Ring during the council, so did Gandalf gently scold Pippin for making too light a matter over the greatest evil in Arda. It isn't a matter of allowing people to have fun or not, as you see right after Gandalf finishes speaking Pippin responds, I think quite merrily, and Gandalf didn't stop the feast in Frodo's honor just because Pippin said something that he knew nothing about.

I think that it's safe to say that you are looking at this thing a little seriously, Mansun, and you're beginning to interpret things that were never intentioned to be there.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

That would have been the very definition of foolishness.

Sarcasm was the intention here, not a valid suggestion on Gandalf's part. In any case, sending the Ring into the Great Sea would have been one of the better options.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Sarcasm was the intention here, not a valid suggestion on Gandalf's part. In any case, sending the Ring into the Great Sea would have been one of the better options.

Throwing the One Ring into the Sea of Belegaer would be as daft as giving it back to Gollum and hope he could hide it another century or two. The Ring was in the hands of the Free Folk (a million to one shot as it was) and it had to be destroyed, not left to chance. Had the Ring not been destroyed when it was, then Sauron would have won by default, as he had more than ample forces to win without the Ring. Gondor and Rohan would have been destroyed, and Lothlorien and Rivendell would have eventually fallen as well. Sauron then could look for the Ring without any interference (and being immortal, he had plenty of time).

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf: Hush! Evil things do not come into this valley, but all the same we should not name them. The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor, whose power is again stretching out over the world! We are sitting in a fortress. Outside it is getting dark.


What exactly was Gandalf afraid of here? Did he believe the Great Eye could reach Rivendell? Was he or others that dwelt there afraid to hear the same of Sauron? Or was Gandalf just self-centred all the time, thinking he governs everyone else's lives?

The Hobbits really had no reckoning about the true power of Sauron. Gandalf, as both a leader and father-figure to the young hobbits, had every right to put Pippin in his place.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Did Gandalf not make light-hearted comments of the gentle treatment given by Sauron to prisoners in the Dark Tower in The White Rider?

"But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower."

You are taking the above quote completely out of context, or perhaps you are merely misreading the intent. There is nothing light-hearted about it, nor sarcastic; in fact, there is nothing but grave concern.

Originally Posted by Mansun

To me Gandalf did not want anyone to celebrate anything until the Ring was destroyed and Mordor overthrown permanently. He may have feared Sauron at all times, but in the comfort of Rivendell, where elves freely be merry and sing songs (sometimes overly merry ones), why did Gandalf overreact?

They were resting before a journey that might have taken all their lives. This was not some trivial comedic romp, and so boo-hoo the poor hobbits were prevented from making ignorant jests. There was no 'overreacting'. Gandalf was cautious, and well he should be; for who among those present had been in the pits of Dol Guldur? Who had seen Mordor up close? Who had studied the very nature of the Ring? None but Elrond had any such vast experience, and he too grew grave when Gandalf recited the Ring poem in Black Speech. You didn't see much slapstick from Elrond, did you?

Originally Posted by Mansun

All posters think, and the thoughts behind their thinking differ according to their own interpretation of the problem. It was slightly hypocritical of Gandalf, to my mind, since his intitial logic suggested no humour whatsoever is allowed linking with that of the Dark Tower.

Again, where exactly is this a laughing matter? The Fellowship was, for all intents and purposes, a potential suicide squad, and Gandalf knew it. The hobbits did not understand this (in fact, I'm not sure Merry and Pippin actually 'got it' until after Gandalf died).

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf was not the lord of Rivendell, after all! Elrond was the master here. Would he have objected like this?

Elrond DID object when Gandalf spoke in Black Speech. If there was no reason for concern, why then would Elrond object? The Ring had been found, the Nazgul had been sent to retrieve it, and the Ringbearer was escaping to Rivendell. Rivendell may have been safe for the moment, but Elrond made it clear that the Ring could not stay there.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you think, in great anger, Gandalf could ever have lost control and beat the Hobbit?

No, he wouldn't (being a Maia enclosed in a corporeal manifestation, it seems he had some level of heavenly restraint). But given the tenor of your posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you believe he would.