''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring''

Originally Posted by Nerwen

"But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower."

As you wish.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as I can see, you are the only one posting on this thread thus far that sees any humor in the quote ..... Otherwise, your position is untenable.

But you do not see very far, and the thoughts of all those that have read the qoute are largely hidden from you.


''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring'' sounds like a merry and kind hearted gesture from a young hobbit to another one who barely escaped undeath.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mansun

As you wish.

Huh? The phrase "gentle loyalty" was the joke? Why?

...Okay... racking my brains here...

The only thing I can come up with is that your pre-existing conviction that Gandalf is a mean ol' Maia who hates hobbits leads you to assume that he can only be praising Merry or Pippin ironically.

If so, it's a circular argument:

"Gandalf is mean to hobbits. He's mean to hobbits because he's a hypocrite. He's a hypocrite because he won't let Pippin joke about Sauron, though he jokes about Merry and Pippin being tortured by Sauron. What he said is a joke because he praises Merry and Pippin. He wouldn't praise them for real because Gandalf is mean to hobbits."

Sorry, Mansun. If that's your argument, you lose.

Originally Posted by Mansun

But you do not see very far, and the thoughts of all those that have read the qoute are largely hidden from you.

Actually, Morthoron has been in telepathic communication with each and every poster apart from you. It's one of those "Dark Elf" things. Didn't you know?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mansun

''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring'' sounds like a merry and kind hearted gesture from a young hobbit to another one who barely escaped undeath.

Indeed. Trouble is, you've now gone so far beyond your original position that it looks like you're cut off from retreat.

Or to put it another way– what happened to every argument you've made since your first post? Are you conceding defeat, or what?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Indeed. Trouble is, you've now gone so far beyond your original position that it looks like you're cut off from retreat.

Or to put it another way– what happened to every argument you've made since your first post? Are you conceding defeat, or what?

I am lost - was the Barrow-Downs about winning or losing? Neither, I believe.

Please continue with the original thread question. . .

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I am lost - was the Barrow-Downs about winning or losing? Neither, I believe.

Please continue with the original thread question. . .

But when you enter into a debate it eventually comes down to who is winning and who is losing.

You have moved off your own topic question and have yet to plausibly prove your point of Gandalf as a killjoy, hypocrite.

''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring'' sounds like a merry and kind hearted gesture from a young hobbit to another one who barely escaped undeath.

So you're saying Pippin wasn't being foolish? He was making light of a very serious situation. He may not have understood it completely, but he saw what happened to Frodo, knew his friend was being chased, he knew he was not supposed to mentioned certain things in the open. And yet he still did. He was being foolish in his words and even in not understanding the situation fully he still should have known that what he was saying was wrong in some way.

[The Barrow-Wight]

I think that's about enough from all of you. This topic has been lost in the clutter of your arguments. I'm closing it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

As you wish.

"But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower."

The phrase in bold (your emphasis) does not imply humor, sarcasm or wit. It reflects a great measure of concern on behalf of the 'gentle', 'innocent', and 'inexperienced' hobbits. Gandalf already knew of the hideous torure inflicted on Gollum by Sauron, and did not want the gentle hobbits loyalty tested to such an extreme. The thought of the Hobbits being broken by Sauron always deeply affected Gandalf (consider how he nearly broke down when Saruman referred to Frodo at Orthanc, or Gandalf's actions when speaking to the Mouth of Sauron). It is a sad realization on Gandalf's part (hence the phrase 'let us not darken our hearts').

Originally Posted by Mansun

But you do not see very far, and the thoughts of all those that have read the qoute are largely hidden from you.

I am not referring to what is hidden, merely what is evident. Let me put it this way: of the posters who have commented directly on the quote in question, none have necessarily agreed with you. This, of course, is subject to change in the unlikely event someone else posts in support of an untenable position.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually, Morthoron has been in telepathic communication with each and every poster apart from you. It's one of those "Dark Elf" things. Didn't you know?

*Laughs out loud*

Ummm...yes, we Dark Elves have the same capacity as Elrond and Galadriel in the movies, having the ability to commune telelpathically over hundreds of miles. This is the reason the elves gave the Palantiri to the Numenoreans ages ago -- we simply didn't need them.

P.S. I suppose if you read sarcastic intent into the sentence, you could apply the emphasis like so: "But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower," Gandalf said with a sneer and a malicious hiss as he spat the word 'gentle'. But then, one could do the same with any sentence: "Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name?