The Nine Walkers

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Mansun:

It appears to me that this seems to imply along with the comments of other posters, that Denethor only sent Boromir to Rivendell for the Ring, and not to seek counsel from Elrond, of whom Denethor rated higher in wisdom even than Sauron himself.

I would agree this was the motive in the movie, especially the Extended Edition, but this quote from The Council of Elrond seems to imply otherwise (at least for the book):

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. "So that is what became of the Ring!" he cried. "If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed."

Boromir, at least, seems genuinely surprised that the Ring still even exists. Looking through The Return of the King doesn't seem to reveal any indication that Denethor knew any more about it than his elder son. Even the Palantir of Minas Tirith did not seem to find any news of it (and a good thing too, since Sauron would have probably then spotted it as well, and Frodo would probably never have reached Cirith Ungol, much less Orodruin.)

I suspect that Denethor did not send Boromir to Rivendell so much as relent and permit him to go:

Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay.

[MatthewM]

radagastly is right. Boromir pressed Denethor to even let him go on the errand. Boromir wanted the meaning of a riddle, not the Ring until he saw it.

[Gordis]

Boromir wanted "the Sword that was broken" - I guess he knew which one it was all right.
But even more he wanted "a token stronger than Morgul spells" whatever it might be.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Boromir .....
But even more he wanted "a token stronger than Morgul spells" whatever it might be.

What about Gandalf's staff? More deadly than any weapon . . .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mansun

What about Gandalf's staff? More deadly than any weapon . . .

Was it now?

Gandalf the Grey had been in Gondor many times, but there was hardly any help from him against the Morgul spells... ever. Had he been that powerful, he could have helped in reclaiming Ithilien -at least before Sauron's return to Mordor. And where was he when the nazgul took the Bridge of Osgiliath?

Boromir hoped for a super-weapon... and indeed "the token" in question was stronger than Morgul spells... only it was even more evil.

[mark12_30]

Gandalf discussed this, didn't he? I mean, Frodo's cousins' usefulness in the end. Wasn't he talking to Aragorn (if I remember correctly) when he said that Pippin's foolishness in looking into the palantir provided Sauron with the idea that Pippin was the Ringbearer, captured, and in Saruman's custody; and that therefore whoever "made" Pippin look into the Palantir, now had the Ring? And if it wasn't Saruman, then it must have been Aragorn?

Isn't that why Sauron took Aragorn so seriously when Aragron himself looked into the Palantir?

Pippin was as 'useful' as a Ringbearer Decoy as Elrond would have been in diplomacy. Elrond could not have talked Sauron into believing that Arqagon had the Ring, and so, taking Aragorn seriously for the rest of the war.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Even if Pippin's foolishly dropped stone did not actually awaken the Balrog, it alerted their enemies in Moria to their presence, and ultimately did not allow them to sneak through, unnoticed -- leaving behind a live and dangerous Balrog.

I never believed that Pippin's stone was the reason for this. There is a possibility that Gollum had kept enemies alert in Moria after skulking around in habited areas. Also, what is there to say that a Moria scout had not spotted the Company? Balin's attempt to retake Moria had awoken the armies of Moria, and going through unseen and unchallenged after that would be almost impossible.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Gandalf discussed this, didn't he? I mean, Frodo's cousins' usefulness in the end. Wasn't he talking to Aragorn (if I remember correctly) when he said that Pippin's foolishness in looking into the palantir provided Sauron with the idea that Pippin was the Ringbearer, captured, and in Saruman's custody; and that therefore whoever "made" Pippin look into the Palantir, now had the Ring? And if it wasn't Saruman, then it must have been Aragorn?

There is no question that even Pippin proved useful in the end - yes, looking into the Palantir, rousing the Ents and saving Faramir and Merry.

But were Gandalf and Elrond back around the time of the Council able to foresee such details - exactly what would happen? I don't think so. I believe Gandalf only had a vague feeling that Pippin and Merry would be useful on the Quest, as he supposed the same all along about Gollum.

However, apart from that, Elrond and Gandalf had to have some plan for the Quest. I think the splitting of the company was planned from the start: Boromir was going to Minas Tirith and Aragorn planned to go with him. What about the hobbits? I think all of them were supposed to go to Mordor, led by Gollum whose involvement was foreseen by Gandalf. Gollum was the only one who knew the way to Mordor after all.
All the big people go to Minas Tirith, all the stealthy and Ring-resistant hobbits to Mordor, that was the idea. Four hobbits could defend the Ring far better against Gollum's attempts to take it. This way there would have been three hobbits, not one, to take over the Quest if Frodo failed.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Actually, I believe Aragorn says somewhere
that he planned to go with Frodo to Mordor
(and with at least Gimli and Sam?).

And wasn't the vague earlier plan to have Merry and Pippin
go to Minas Tirith with Boromir, not sure about Legolas.