The Nine Walkers

[Groin Redbeard]

I think that I can pretty much sum up this question with a single quote.

Originally Posted by The Ring Goes South

"Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the Road to the Fire by the power that is in him." -Gandalf

The advantage for the Fellowship would be in secrecy, not in power, although they did have some the best warriors in Middle Earth accompanying them.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would Elrond's Knowledge have helped the Company see them through their journey to Mordor without entering Moria?

Gandalf's wisdom could have rivaled that of Elrond, and unless Elrond could stop the storms of Caradhras there was no way that his knowledge would have been to any avail.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would Denethor have listened more to Elrond's counsel as opposed to that of Gandalf in Minas Tirith?

I think that since Gandalf actually knew Denethor, a strange elf- lord showing up on his doorstep telling him what to do would infuriate Denethor and hurt his pride more than help.

Originally Posted by Mansun

How would the Witch King have reacted to seeing Glorfindel or Elrond instead of his encounter with Gandalf at the gate of Minas Tirith?

This question I cannot answer. Glorfindel was the only one who could openly do battle to the Witch King, and Elrond would have been as much of a match for him as Gandalf. Though the Witch King shows a great amount of arrogance in talking to Gandalf as if he was an "Old Man" on a horse. We never get to see any fighting happening, so I'm not 100% sure how it would have gone down, but I'm sure Glorfindel or Elrond couldn't do any better than Gandalf would have.

But there was no visible way that they could know of all those situations. Remember the Fellowships hope was in speed and secrecy.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I think that I can pretty much sum up this question with a single quote.



The advantage for the Fellowship would be in secrecy, not in power, although they did have some the best warriors in Middle Earth accompanying them.


Gandalf's wisdom could have rivaled that of Elrond, and unless Elrond could stop the storms of Caradhras there was no way that his knowledge would have been to any avail.


I think that since Gandalf actually knew Denethor, a strange elf- lord showing up on his doorstep telling him what to do would infuriate Denethor and hurt his pride more than help.


This question I cannot answer. Glorfindel was the only one who could openly do battle to the Witch King, and Elrond would have been as much of a match for him as Gandalf. Though the Witch King shows a great amount of arrogance in talking to Gandalf as if he was an "Old Man" on a horse. We never get to see any fighting happening, so I'm not 100% sure how it would have gone down, but I'm sure Glorfindel or Elrond couldn't do any better than Gandalf would have.

But there was no visible way that they could know of all those situations. Remember the Fellowships hope was in speed and secrecy.

It is possible that the great lords of Rivendell could have offered more knowledge to the advantage of the Company and the Quest, whilst at the same time delivering all the enhanced skills for combat and secrecy of movement and going unseen that great elves are renowned for. Certainly in Minas Tirith there would have been more morale if more than just one great lord came to their aid before the onslaught of Mordor.

Denethor, I recall, favoured Elrond to be the wisest of all the Loremasters in Middle Earth, according to Boromir. That is partly why Boromir was sent to Rivendell, to seek the counsel of Elrond. Though what good he could have done for Denethor but perhaps talking him out of taking his life is beyond me. I would think Denethor seeing Elrond as a strange elf lord would have been most alarming, given the history of this great sire, in particular in his role in the Last Battle against Sauron 3,000 years before. Surely his coming, as with the Sword of Elendil, would have rekindled hope and glory. Victory by arms could have been a dream again.

If the Witch King had one great lord to contend with, logic suggests he would have given the same mocking treatment as he did with Gandalf. If he was up against two lords, then he would almost certainly have reverted to plan B (retreat, then drive his armies into terror and to assault Minas Tirith for him).

[Groin Redbeard]

You make some valid points that I never thought of, Mansun. However, the elves were beginning to fade away into the west and the dominance of Men was becoming visible, especially once Elessar ascended the throne of Gondor. Could it be that Elrond saw this war as a war for the future age of Men? I'm not saying that the elves would be completely dormant, but not taking an active role, as they have done before; instead men would be the dominant figures to decide their own fate. Sort of like winning their spurs.

Then again that's just me: full of crazy ideas!

[Rumil]

Hi all,

see previous comments here-

What if Elves went instead of Merry and Pippin-http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2555

Cheers,

Rumil

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

see previous comments here-

What if Elves went instead of Merry and Pippin-http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2555

Cheers,

Rumil

This thread takes things to another level to the one you have referenced, Rumil, as it asks what may have happened if the majority of the Company chosen were elf lords from Rivendell. Elrond is also Half Elven, not elven. This thread also seeks to look at what impact Elrond in particular could have had during the trek of the Nine Walkers.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Also there was the estrangement with even the Edain, and that while Gandalf was still accepted as a "wizard" in the guise of an old man, an immortal high elf would not have mixed well among the Rohirrim or even the Gondorins. Also, the movement of such a personage would have been easily marked by spies of the enemy. Recall Gandalf's regret at revealing his power in the Redhorn Pass, or that after his return he still used his grey rags to conceal his new strength and light. Glorfindel would have stood out -- shown or shined -- wherever he went, and little could have counteracted his nature.

Three final points: (1) An overriding strategy was to occupy the Enemy's gaze, and Elrond's and Glorfindel's staying in the North would have kept some part of Sauron's attention directed that way. He would have still viewed them as a threat and a focus of his Malice, even as Elrond knew their role and powers to be passive and no longer meant to project power in an aggressive sense. Consider Varya's attributes. Their only true contribution to the cause was Sauron's fear of them.

(2) Elrond may not have wanted himself or any of his people to be tested by prolonged exposure to the Ring. They were still at heart proud and powerful High Elves, who probably nurtured some some sense of how they thought things should be. Gandalf and Aragorn had already passed the test, and in fact, possessed simpler, purer types of nobility and strength, and they appreciated the world of Men. The others of the Nine walkers were generally less complicated and unaffected.

(3) More Elves would have meant fewer Hobbits, which of course, could serve as decoys, even sacrificial ones, but also could step in as substitute ringbearers, if necessary. Unexpectedly, they also played the role of non-intimidating emissaries among Ents and Men.

[Eönwë]

Well, there's obviously Sam and Frodo. Without them there is no fellowship. But other than that I'll give it a go:

First of all, you can't replace Gandalf. More powerful than an elf lord, and much more easily hidden. And I don't know what some of you think, but Gandalf would totally "pwn" (but that's 7th age speak, and not commonly used at that, so I don't thibk he'd use that particular word himself) the Witch King. But that's a discussion for another day (But let's just say this: He's a match for a Balrog. And the WK is- or was- a man).

Aragorn's fate is tied to this so he definately had to go.

Legolas could have been replaced but he helped them a lot (especially in Lorien- but I suppose Gandalf and Aragorn could have done that anyway. But it wouldn't have been as easy). And without him, we wouldn't have that acrobatic, sliding (on shields or Oliphaunt trunks) horse-jumping-onto elf of the movies, and we wouldn't be able to make fun of the "fangurls".

Gimli is important because if Gloin and Bilbo couldn't be in this together, then they need a representative/heir/descendant. After all, if it wasn't for the dwarves, Bilbo wouldn't have found the ring, so they need a dwarf to lose/get rid of it again.

Well, we all know that Boromir might have been better replaced by Faramir, but that is also another discussion. But the fellowship wouldn't have split up so easily (In a good way) if he hadn't died, Faramir wouldn't have found Frodo later on (instead it would have beeen Boromir, who would have taken it). The sight of Gondorian lord would also have probably intimidated the Rohirrim, as they were already on slightly unfriendly terms (If I remember correctly), and Gondor were the rulers.

Now, about the hobbits. Earlier on, it might have been better for the fellowship to replace Merry and Pippin with great warriors. But in the battle where Boromir was killed, would the Uruks have spared to great elf-lords. Something tells me they would much rather kill them, and delight in doing so. Then there would be no-one to cause the Ents to go to war. Elfs would indoubtedly be better at talking to trees, bu would they have survived? Also, the Merry and Pippin would would have probably been killed, or at least not been in the right mind to head a rebellion. The Thain would just have been another boring person as before, even as a Took, he would not be so inflamed to fight and wouldn't have been experienced enough. The Shire may well have fallen if not for those certain hobbits going on the Quest.

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

The Age of Men


An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

Man-of-the-Wold's comment deserves close thought, as he suggests something important about the larger picture. It is not that elves might be more powerful than men or that Gondor would have welcomed elves. It is that in the Legendarium, the elves have had their chance. They were weighed in the balance and found wanting and now are diminishing. The important aspect of the Third Age is how the focus shifts from the first born to the next born, men. Hence, Man-of-the-Wold's choice of title for his post. A fellowship comprised in the majority by men--and hobbits are men--even one that breaks-- provides for this shift. It is the chronological development of the coming of men that makes this fellowship rather than an elven fellowship meaningful. Furthermore, Elves would have made the alliance between Rohan and Gondor less significant and less strategic. The elves, after all, failed to destroy the Ring in the past. Why would they necessarily be more successful this time?

The recurrent theme that even the very small or weak have a part to play is also brought out by having the hobbits play a major role, as well as having other men--Boromir and Faramir--play out the Ring's powerful appeal. LotR is a story for a new age and not a rehash of some elven battle. And the presence of members of the older races, elves and dwarves, works to acheive some kind of rapproachment with the earlier ages, where friendship becomes at least as significant as their prowess in battle. Strangely enough, even with all its emphasis on war and battle and fighting and might, LotR, like The Battle of Maldon, makes psychology a crucial aspect of the struggle.