It's not just about having the power...

[Thinlómien]

I'm not going to take part in the Gandalf-Saruman debate, as it has been discussed rather thoroughly already, and I don't want to get entangled in it as well. Great points, everyone, though...

If you think of it, there are really dozens of examples when not using the power is the course of action for the good guys and proves to be a right choice in the end. Many examples have already been mentioned, but I would like to add a few.

There is the Gollum-case, already mentioned once. Bilbo had in his power to kill Gollum, but he didn't. Neither did Gandalf choose that fate for Gollum, but rather left him to the Wood-Elves' keeping. And as we know, that ultimately saved the whole quest from failure. (Also, maybe we could even mix the Faramir-Gollum thing with this too.)

Also, in Mordor, Sam got the Ring and he was filled with visions of healing Mordor and defeating Sauron. He could have taken the chance and tried, but he would have been defeated and the quest would have failed. He was humble enough to realise it. (Although, this is an interesting case, because we don't know what he would have really been able to and what was just madness caused by The Ring. Surely just a simple Hobbit couldn't have overthrown Sauron even if he had the Ring? But the key point is that he would surely have been able to do something, and he chose not to use the power of the Ring to do so.)

And Denethor, he's maybe a really good example. As long as he refused to use the power of the palantír, things were fine. But when he submitted to it, decided to use his immense power of mind to wield the power of the palantír, he was doomed.

Then there are tons of other examples, surely. But I'd actually love to "twist" the setting a little. Are there any cases where having the power and not using it is actually bad?

I can immediately think of one case. Fëanor, whose Silmarils might have had the power to heal the Trees. He refused. This created much woe, and I think it nurtured the obsessive pride and will of possessing that Fëanor and his kin had over these jewels. Also, I'm pretty sure it worsened many relationships in Aman, but I'm too lazy to walk to an other room, take the Sil from the bookshelf and check...

Are there other examples? I'm pretty sure there are, at least in the Sil, but I can't think of them right now. Furthermore, I have the feeling that we will soon have to define the word "power" or this debate will get all too messy...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Are there other examples? I'm pretty sure there are, at least in the Sil, but I can't think of them right now. Furthermore, I have the feeling that we will soon have to define the word "power" or this debate will get all too messy...

I think Tolkien uses "power" both in the sense of physical or metaphysical might, but also (and possibly more significantly) as Authority, as in the power of a king over subjects, or of a general over armies. Either works in the debate, I believe.

Another instance of the negative effect of having power and not using it is the situation with the Valar and Melkor in the First Age and before. I wish I had the time to go dig up the pertinent quotes ('cause I don't recall precisely where they are), but Eru was not happy with the Valar hauling the Elves off to Valinor for safekeeping while they allowed Melkor to have his way with Middle-earth. He would have preferred that they deal with him more expediently, and trust in him to protect his Children. They had both the might and the authority to do so, but put it off and put it off until the confrontation inevitably caused tremendous loss of life and destruction to Middle-earth. If they had exercised their power much sooner -- say, when he destroyed the Lamps, before the Elves awakened -- much misery and woe would have been avoided later.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I can immediately think of one case. Fëanor, whose Silmarils might have had the power to heal the Trees. He refused. This created much woe, and I think it nurtured the obsessive pride and will of possessing that Fëanor and his kin had over these jewels. Also, I'm pretty sure it worsened many relationships in Aman, but I'm too lazy to walk to an other room, take the Sil from the bookshelf and check...

Hmm, while I agree with the former cases, I have to disagree on this one, as it's not quite in the position of "power" as the other ones. This was not the question of using or not using power, it was a question of giving or not giving up something. (And maybe even about giving up power - from certain point of view. Fëanor was unable to make the Silmarils again.) It would be the same question if Fëanor just had the power to revive the Trees with no loss for himself (for example, that he could do that repeatingly just like that), and not did that. But this way, I see it as something different.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think Tolkien uses "power" both in the sense of physical or metaphysical might, but also (and possibly more significantly) as Authority, as in the power of a king over subjects, or of a general over armies. Either works in the debate, I believe.

Well, what I had in mind, rather, was the power in the sense of... power to do something, power over another: be it over a person, over a living creature, over a tree or plant, over a city or a mountain, over the earth itself (the latter ones rather in the "magical" way). I can recall only very few moments when somebody excercised a power over a piece of land, for example the Girdle of Melian, or Lothlórien (here it was seen very well) - but still, the Elven Rings were made "to preserve and not to rule", and even here it was just the land that was affected, or rather, unaffected: unaffected by time and changes in the world outside; whereas the animals, inhabitants, plants inside could roam/grow freely. In contrary to that, for example Sauron (and Saruman in his latter days) did his best to not only excercise power over his slaves, but also to change Mordor to his image (in a much more crude way, Saruman also did the same with Isengard and later with the Shire, which is a brilliant example of the use of power, now meaning the whole physio-geographical AND socio-economical sphere taken together).

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Another instance of the negative effect of having power and not using it is the situation with the Valar and Melkor in the First Age and before. I wish I had the time to go dig up the pertinent quotes ('cause I don't recall precisely where they are), but Eru was not happy with the Valar hauling the Elves off to Valinor for safekeeping while they allowed Melkor to have his way with Middle-earth. He would have preferred that they deal with him more expediently, and trust in him to protect his Children. They had both the might and the authority to do so, but put it off and put it off until the confrontation inevitably caused tremendous loss of life and destruction to Middle-earth. If they had exercised their power much sooner -- say, when he destroyed the Lamps, before the Elves awakened -- much misery and woe would have been avoided later.

Oh, ho, ho, wait here a little bit. I was under the impression that actually the excercice of power against Morgoth was later viewed as bad, or at least the way it went. I am now speaking about the battle for Utumno: I don't know where I read it, but I think somebody quoted some Letters or HoME, and it was maybe hinted even in the Sil itself, that Valar later wished that they had not attacked Morgoth like that, the idea was something like that even just seeing the lights in the North and the ground shaking etc. scared most of the Elves and that caused lots of them to be afraid of Valar or see them indeed as horrible Gods capable of destroying whole lands etc., and lots of them decided not to come to Aman because of this. I am not sure about that, as I am not Letter-or whatever expert, but I can imagine that and it sounds logical to me.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It is true that the Valar regretted the War of Wrath and the destruction it caused to the lands of Middle-earth, but it is also true that Eru felt that this situation could have been avoided if the Valar had dealt with Melkor much sooner, rather than allow him to have so much free rein in ME, both before the Elves awakened and after. I have done a lot of reading and research in all of the books, including the Letters and HoME books, but I haven't read through any of them recently enough to remember precisely where these references are. *sigh* I know where most of my copies of the books are: buried in my office, all too literally, so I don't really have access to them right now. As soon as I can get at them, I must read through them again, 'cause I can remember many things, but can't tell you exactly where it appeared. *double sigh* They say the memory is the first thing to go, and they may be right....

Now that said, in one of the few books I do have access to (UT), it is said about the Istari and the fact that they were sent in humble human forms:

"And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power."

The error, from other references I recall but cannot quote (at the moment), was twofold: that the Valar used a display of power to influence the Elves so that they would come to Valinor for protection, and that they had put off a final confrontation with Melkor for so long, such seclusion was (at least in their minds) necessary. This was not what Eru would have wanted; he would have preferred for the Valar to trust him to safeguard his Children while Melkor was dealt with (or better, deal with him before the Children awakened). They didn't, and they made mistakes in both the use of Authority and Might.

I REALLY need to get a bulldozer and clean out the years of detritus that have buried my office....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, do buldooze then, if you have chance I would really like to know, if there's anything particular to say to this aspect, especially if that was from Eru himself.

However, indeed what you quoted is what I had in mind: the "amending the errors of old", especially in this context with might of Valar put in contrast to the humbleness of the Wizards, speaks for not using the power by the Valar when it came to the Elves and the war and that's how I have always understood it. Of course the situation was a little different there when Melkor, one of the Valar himself was reigning there, but that was just the time when Valar had to adapt to the fact that the world is no longer a battlefield of gods but that there are also different subtler, yet free beings emerging.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

For myself, I do think that the biggest error the Valar made "of old" was not taking care of Melkor and his threat before the Elves awakened. At that point, the use of power (as in might) would have been appropriate, because that was how Melkor operated. He kept destroying things, Aule and others kept building them back up again. Manwe had been given the authority (as in power ) by Eru to deal with his renegade activities, since he had been appointed as the king, not Melkor (which I'm sure stuck in Melkor's craw). But he didn't exercise that authority to deal decisively with his brother, and the world suffered for it again and again. So I do not wonder that Manwe made another error in wanting to seclude the Elves rather than fight his brother to protect them. As I recall, Eru's specific annoyance with this was the lack of trust (or perhaps faith) in him that the Valar displayed, fearing more that a confrontation with Melkor would hurt the Children more than they trusted Eru to protect the Elves from harm. It really isn't just about having power, but knowing when its use is truly appropriate. I sometimes wonder if Manwe, in his naievete about Evil, also was in the dark about certain aspects of power -- ones that might "feel" evil to someone with that kind of innocence, whether they truly were or not. The Istari being sent in a diminished human form was an attempt, I think, to do it right for a change, and that still almost turned out to be too little too late.

Sometimes, it does make one wonder why Manwe was put in charge. Sometimes.

I will see about renting a bulldozer tomorrow. That room really is in a state, as it got crammed with all the junk from my last business when I dissolved the partnership. It was a messy, messy sitution, just like the room is now (which is probably no coincidence, either).