A hundredth re-read of the LotR

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

The things that made me wonder here were two things rather loosely related to the main theme. They would probably merit threads of their own, but I will mention them briefly. First off, Tharbad. We know it was a city of men, we know where it was located and we know the year of its ruin and desertion (T.A. 2912). But what else? Who were these people who lived there? When was the city founded and by whom? What kind of political role did it play? I have never come across with any further information about the city yet the topic intrigues me...

Okay, this is not exactly on topic, but concerning this, there are some passages which at least briefly speak about Tharbad and the region around it in the Unfinished Tales, I think it's the "additions" after the tale of Aldarion and Erendis. Quite some stuff, about Númenoreans coming to Middle-Earth and making their first havens there...

However, they key thing here, I think, is that no one was really oppressed or discriminated in the Hobbit society. The rich helped the poor, women were (I think) rather equal with men even though the traditional gender roles were predominant (hmm... please, let's not talk about this because otherwise I might start ranting *would add smiley if hadn't passed the limit already*) and even those considered odd (like the Bagginses) were tolerated and had some friends. I think we could rather safely assume that homosexual Hobbits would be treated similarily. Gossiped about, and not always nicely, but in principle liked and tolerated and not shunned. Even though, I find the idea of a publicly gay Hobbit very hard to imagine.

Actually, of all the societies in Middle-Earth, I can imagine gay Hobbits probably the best. And I would rather stay with what you said at first: that homosexual Hobbits would be treated similarly. If there were any existing in there, I think except for a few Sandymans to gossip, they might be quite widely well accepted.

and in the Scouring of the Shire there are written rules on the walls of the "guest-house" or whatever it is. One could assume that if Saruman's ruffians new hobbits were illiterate, they would not bother with written rules.

Speaking of this, I might add that I wonder whether the Ruffians could read... I'd actually wonder if they did. But maybe Saruman, being the propagator of "Knowledge, Rule, Order" made all his servants as educated as possible, literacy included? Anyway, this is off-topic - let's save this for the final chapters of the re-read

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, there are two examples of rather rude behaviour by nice Hobbits in this chapter. I wonder if it's because I don't get Brits'/Tolkien's/Hobbits' sense of humour or because it's really rather rude.

You kind of answered yourself during the course of writing , but at least to me, it never seemed rude. Although somebody said that Czech and English people have similar sense of humour - but personally, I don't think it would be THAT different with these "regional humours". Anyway, Merry's joke is just very good, I have never noticed what Frodo says before really, but I think what Merry says is just a very nice, very clever and simply just brilliant way to make a joke like that. It's that kind of "intelligent way of saying something rude, while making it also really funny in the process".
And as for how I understood the present for Dora, I always imagined it like that when writing to Bilbo and Frodo, she may have produced also lots of "by-products" or badly written letters which she later decided to throw away. However Bilbo's intention may be interpretated otherwise, I certainly wouldn't even think of looking for any sarcasm from the author's part in it.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

How the Ring verse got into Elven lore is no real puzzle at all, I think. During the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says of the verse,

The verse is not just a creepy poem; it is, I believe, the spell through which Sauron bound the lesser rings to his, including the Three which he apparently knew about, but had never touched. It's not terribly surprising that the Elves would remember it. How they heard it, or if only those who owned the Three heard it, is perhaps the only real puzzle. That and where Sauron learned how to make such nice poetry (though if he could invent the Black Speech, one might suppose that he if no one else could write poems in it ).

Sauron sure was a great poet; remember, he was a Necromancer, or rather THE Necromancer (something like THE Ka), and remember his "battle" of songs with Finrod... in M-E, every "Wizard", resp. "Spell-caster" was also a singer and a poet, or at least one of those. Saruman was at least a rhetor, if nothing else... The power of words... hmm... that would almost do for a thread...
And yes, I agree what you say about hearing the words. It is obvious from the text that the Elves heard it, imagine whatever you wish under it, I always imagined it the way it's said, but you can think of any theories yourself, like "clairaudience" or "teleempathy" or whatever. Isn't this referred to in any Letter, by the way? Just asking.

I had some ideas also to comment on from the posts above, but I don't recall now... maybe fortunately, thinking about the length...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And as for how I understood the present for Dora, I always imagined it like that when writing to Bilbo and Frodo, she may have produced also lots of "by-products" or badly written letters which she later decided to throw away. However Bilbo's intention may be interpretated otherwise, I certainly wouldn't even think of looking for any sarcasm from the author's part in it.

Maybe you should think again

For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondance, with love from Bilbo; on a large waste-paper basket. Dora was Drogo's sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century.

To me this certainly is sarcasm both from Bilbo and the author. No doubt Bilbo was royally tired of being lectured about god knows what (likely how to be more respectable) and I imagine he also let Dora know as tactfully as he could that he had no need her "good" advice. She probably understood his wish for less junk-mail perfectly well too but ignored it completely. Thus, the large waste-basket symbolises what Bilbo thought of her advice and where her letters usually ended up. Rude? Yes I suppose so. Perhaps she deserved it.

Most of the presents Bilbo gave away (at least the mentioned ones) where attached with similar sarcastic puns and with, for the receiver, clear symbolic meaning. Lobelia gets silver spoons as a present (as opposed to the ones she had stolen earlier), Angelica gets a mirror (as she is all too fond of her reflected image) and Milo Burrows gets a golden pen and and ink bottle as he never responds to letters.

Hm. Actually there where other things I wanted to say but that will have to wait.

[alatar]

Completely unrelated, and hopelessly behind in the discussion, but if I don't note this now, I never will (which some of you may consider to have been the wiser choice):

The phrase 'as a rule' is used at least four to five times in the first two chapters. I think that there is a thread regarding this phrase, but not due to the number of times it is used. After this, I doubt that it will show up with as much frequency.

Such repetition!

[Nogrod]

Nice to see people discussing.. and sad to see that dying down that easily. But let's go forwards!

On Three is a Company the first thing that strikes my mind is the beauty of the way Tolkien describes the last days in Hobitton for Frodo, Sam and others. It really is something I really appreciate: the mood, the feeling, the detail; all serve to build for the more gloomier destiny that is about but it still fills the reader with the reminiscent feeling of the world there will be no more. It's plain genius.

There is another of my great favourites here in this chapter as well, meaning Bilbo's lore about paths and roads taking you where you don't know they might do. I remember when I was very young (like ten) and my father read the LotR to me as a bedtimestory that one thing made me wonder indeed. I spent hours and hours with the globe-ball (lighted inside) in my bedroom in the evenings when it was all dark around, looking for different ways the paths might bring one almost anywhere, and I was most disappointed with the seas!

But that really has been a thing that has followed me from that early childhood onwards. I'm still awed by the roads and paths... I mean be careful where you step into!

To make this even more interesting one might quote Gildor in the end of the chapter: "The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out". Talking about multiculturalism and the ways of the world today - Tolkien was just a prophet in this matter! These roads will make us meet "the other" before we make use of them ourselves to reach the other places (not counting the organised holiday trips that are more sham than real).


Also the elven attitudes to the hobbits is an interesting thing - how they kind of scorn and play them as fools before they actually notice it's Frodo (the heir of Bilbo) and how grave their quest is... But still they don't give them more help but a promise to send their "message throught the lands".

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

[Nogrod]

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

Such intensly written!

Funny that the second appearance of the Nazgûl now feels even more frightening!

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

Such intensly written!

Funny that the second appearance of the Nazgûl now feels even more frightening!

It's a shame, but I can't remember a first time when I read about the black riders, a time when I didn't already know what they were and could share the Hobbits fear of the unknown. There must have been a first time of course, but I've no recollection of it sadly, perhaps because I was so young when I first read the book. When rereading it though, I agree that it is during the first few chapters the Riders are the scariest. It's often like that. isn't it? When the danger is only suggested, it seems much more deadly. In the Shire you feel that if the riders were to catch Frodo on the road it would end in indescribable horror, there and then. Later on, when we learn more of the Nazgul, and when they fail to take the ring despite several excellent opportunities, their aura of dread also dissipates somewhat.

These first chapters of the first book are, and will always remain, my favourite part of the trilogy. Here, in familiar, very non-fantasy surroundings, the story begins and is masterfully built up. In similar fashion to why the Nazgul are most effective here in my mind, I also think the suggestion of Mordor and all the other amazing places and people that we are later taken to are most thrilling when we can only imagine them from sparse second hand information. When it is later written down plainly in detail some of the magic is lost. This, I suppose is the reason why I enjoy the Silmarillion so much (not saying I don't enjoy LotR mind you). Since the narrative is so compressed and distant, it leaves a lot of space for your imagination to fill in. A few lines in the Silm have conjured up fantastic visions in my mind. But now we're talking about LotR...

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

Indeed, you got it here! At least for me, no way. And I wouldn't perhaps mind even the Black Riders, when it comes to that.

[Peregrin Took]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

I wholeheartedly agree! I wish it everytime.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

I nearly forgot that it was the first time that the reader gets a peek at the Nazgul. Although I must admit that it wasn't too scary for me when the Nazgul made his first appearance, it's when you find out that it's tracking the Hobbits that you get scared.

I thought that is was pretty neat the way that Tolkien sets up the atmospere around Frodo's leaving acting as if it was nothing and then WHAM, out of nowhere the adventure begins!

There is not really much to write about for this chapter, other than it's delightfully written and it's the fist step in the ladder in Frodo's long adventure. Anyway, we get a little bit of wisdom out of the chapter from Frodo: "Never go to the Elves for counsil..." Did you hear that Legate?

I'll see if I can get a post up tomorrow for the next chapter, I think we're done with Three is Company, aren't we?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Anyway, we get a little bit of wisdom out of the chapter from Frodo: "Never go to the Elves for counsil..." Did you hear that Legate?

I wonder what was that supposed to mean...???

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

I now cannot find where, but I am pretty sure this has been discussed (relatively, possibly this spring at most - maybe) recently in some thread, and there were some quite good and reasonable contributions to it. If I happen to find it, I will post a link here. I think some of the basic ideas were simply that it wasn't "their job", and ... but there was more to it. A pity I don't remember.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I now cannot find where, but I am pretty sure this has been discussed (relatively, possibly this spring at most - maybe) recently in some thread, and there were some quite good and reasonable contributions to it. If I happen to find it, I will post a link here. I think some of the basic ideas were simply that it wasn't "their job", and ... but there was more to it. A pity I don't remember.

I believe you mean this: The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I also referred to this particular chapter, Gildor, and the attitude of many Elves, in the "Is Legolas Afraid to get his Nails Dirty?" thread.

Strangely, when I first read LotR, I was much less impressed by the Black Rider in this chapter than I was with the wandering company of Elves. In reflection, it amazes me how many notable quotes came out in this chapter. "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards..."; "Go not to the Elves..."; "A star shines on the hour of our meeting" -- there may well be more, though I don't have the book on hand to check.