A hundredth re-read of the LotR

[Nogrod]

Nice to see people discussing.. and sad to see that dying down that easily. But let's go forwards!

On Three is a Company the first thing that strikes my mind is the beauty of the way Tolkien describes the last days in Hobitton for Frodo, Sam and others. It really is something I really appreciate: the mood, the feeling, the detail; all serve to build for the more gloomier destiny that is about but it still fills the reader with the reminiscent feeling of the world there will be no more. It's plain genius.

There is another of my great favourites here in this chapter as well, meaning Bilbo's lore about paths and roads taking you where you don't know they might do. I remember when I was very young (like ten) and my father read the LotR to me as a bedtimestory that one thing made me wonder indeed. I spent hours and hours with the globe-ball (lighted inside) in my bedroom in the evenings when it was all dark around, looking for different ways the paths might bring one almost anywhere, and I was most disappointed with the seas!

But that really has been a thing that has followed me from that early childhood onwards. I'm still awed by the roads and paths... I mean be careful where you step into!

To make this even more interesting one might quote Gildor in the end of the chapter: "The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourself in, but you cannot forever fence it out". Talking about multiculturalism and the ways of the world today - Tolkien was just a prophet in this matter! These roads will make us meet "the other" before we make use of them ourselves to reach the other places (not counting the organised holiday trips that are more sham than real).


Also the elven attitudes to the hobbits is an interesting thing - how they kind of scorn and play them as fools before they actually notice it's Frodo (the heir of Bilbo) and how grave their quest is... But still they don't give them more help but a promise to send their "message throught the lands".

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

[Nogrod]

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

Such intensly written!

Funny that the second appearance of the Nazgûl now feels even more frightening!

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

Such intensly written!

Funny that the second appearance of the Nazgûl now feels even more frightening!

It's a shame, but I can't remember a first time when I read about the black riders, a time when I didn't already know what they were and could share the Hobbits fear of the unknown. There must have been a first time of course, but I've no recollection of it sadly, perhaps because I was so young when I first read the book. When rereading it though, I agree that it is during the first few chapters the Riders are the scariest. It's often like that. isn't it? When the danger is only suggested, it seems much more deadly. In the Shire you feel that if the riders were to catch Frodo on the road it would end in indescribable horror, there and then. Later on, when we learn more of the Nazgul, and when they fail to take the ring despite several excellent opportunities, their aura of dread also dissipates somewhat.

These first chapters of the first book are, and will always remain, my favourite part of the trilogy. Here, in familiar, very non-fantasy surroundings, the story begins and is masterfully built up. In similar fashion to why the Nazgul are most effective here in my mind, I also think the suggestion of Mordor and all the other amazing places and people that we are later taken to are most thrilling when we can only imagine them from sparse second hand information. When it is later written down plainly in detail some of the magic is lost. This, I suppose is the reason why I enjoy the Silmarillion so much (not saying I don't enjoy LotR mind you). Since the narrative is so compressed and distant, it leaves a lot of space for your imagination to fill in. A few lines in the Silm have conjured up fantastic visions in my mind. But now we're talking about LotR...

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

Indeed, you got it here! At least for me, no way. And I wouldn't perhaps mind even the Black Riders, when it comes to that.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Technically there never is a "dreamless" slumber, as we have countless dreams every night, we just don't remember them. But, just that idea of a "dreamless" slumber, once that is uninterrupting, a good, straight, replenishing sleep is pleasant. And of course, once Frodo leaves the Elves how many more of these "dreamless slumbers" does he really have?

Hmmm...perhaps he had Sleep Apnea and could not reach the REM stage of sleep, wherein dreams do come. Hobbits, being prone to obesity, could certainly be susceptible to that syndrome.

*Crickets*

Ummm...sorry for the awkward intro, but I've come late to the discussion, and I promise to be more topically relevant as the story progresses.

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

I agree with your view of hiking regarding this chapter. It seems to always gets me in the mood for a camping trip. In fact, as it is Sunday, this entire discussion has given me the urge to go for a hike; therefore, I've decided to drag my daughter off on a fall color tour this afternoon.

[Peregrin Took]

Originally Posted by skip spence

This chapter is the foremost hiking chapter too, isn't it? The Hobbits' trek across the Shire is described in great detail, and although there are many other such scenes later on in the books there are hardly any better ones. Is there anyone who can read this chapter without wishing that they were out walking in Woods End of the Shire glancing back at the lights of Hobbiton (without the pursuing black riders of course)?

I wholeheartedly agree! I wish it everytime.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And surely I'm not the only one to whom the appearance of the first black rider was a terrifying experience when being read that part of the story!

I nearly forgot that it was the first time that the reader gets a peek at the Nazgul. Although I must admit that it wasn't too scary for me when the Nazgul made his first appearance, it's when you find out that it's tracking the Hobbits that you get scared.

I thought that is was pretty neat the way that Tolkien sets up the atmospere around Frodo's leaving acting as if it was nothing and then WHAM, out of nowhere the adventure begins!

There is not really much to write about for this chapter, other than it's delightfully written and it's the fist step in the ladder in Frodo's long adventure. Anyway, we get a little bit of wisdom out of the chapter from Frodo: "Never go to the Elves for counsil..." Did you hear that Legate?

I'll see if I can get a post up tomorrow for the next chapter, I think we're done with Three is Company, aren't we?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Anyway, we get a little bit of wisdom out of the chapter from Frodo: "Never go to the Elves for counsil..." Did you hear that Legate?

I wonder what was that supposed to mean...???

[alatar]

Speaking of the Nazgul, why does everyone after the hobbits' example call them 'the Black Riders' and yet know that these are 'THE' Black Riders? Hasn't any other group of humans ever ridden garbed in black? Had the Nazgul always ridden thus?

When Frodo and the hobbits meet with Gildor and the elves, everyone speaks of the Black Riders like the words have only one universal meaning. It's as if they are saying 'dragons' - a specific threat of known form. But the words black riders are too generic to carry the same specificity.

What if Frodo et al had called them the 'Saddled Snufflers?' Would Gildor have been taken aback at hearing that the snufflers rode again?

And speaking of sniffing, why does Tolkien via mostly Pippin make such a big deal that the creatures hunt by smell, and yet later on this becomes a pretty boring detail?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by alatar

Speaking of the Nazgul, why does everyone after the hobbits' example call them 'the Black Riders' and yet know that these are 'THE' Black Riders? Hasn't any other group of humans ever ridden garbed in black? Had the Nazgul always ridden thus?

That's a good point. Especially since the Nazgul had not been seen west of Anduin in many centuries I'd say it's a tad hasty concluding that the black riders Frodo refers to must be the Nine. I suppose it could be argued that Gildor could read much more than what was actually said in Frodo's eyes.

Originally Posted by FotR

'You do not ask me or tell me much that concerns yourself, Frodo', said Gildor. 'But I already know a little, and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions.

But how could Gildor read in Frodo's eyes that the Nine were pursuing him, if Frodo himself knew little or nothing about who they were, or at least did not know clearly that it was they who pursued him? The only satisfying answer I can come up with it that they already knew the Nazgul were about. But did they also know about the quest, why the Nine were after Frodo? No, says Gildor and I've no reason not to believe that. After all, if he knew Frodo were carrying the One ring which, if it came into the hands of the Nine, would surely put Middle Earth firmly in Sauron's grasp for an unforeseeable future, they would surely offer more assistance then a few reluctant pointers and a lecture about how little they care about the troubles of puny Hobbits and Men.

Originally Posted by Morth

I agree with your view of hiking regarding this chapter. It seems to always gets me in the mood for a camping trip. In fact, as it is Sunday, this entire discussion has given me the urge to go for a hike; therefore, I've decided to drag my daughter off on a fall color tour this afternoon.

Sounds like a good idea. I did the same this Sunday (minus the daughter) and even brought a camera. Here's a few samples of fall in Skåne, Sweden:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...e/DSCN1841.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../DSCN1860b.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...e/DSCN1850.jpg

[alatar]

Originally Posted by skip spence

That's a good point. Especially since the Nazgul had not been seen west of Anduin in many centuries I'd say it's a tad hasty concluding that the black riders Frodo refers must be the Nine. I suppose it could be argued that Gildor could read much more than what was actually said in Frodo's eyes.

That's what I thought, especially as we don't know their number, which, at this time, is either one or two. Maybe Mordor bred some new evil, like Mouth, that was searching the Shire. Pretty big jump to assume the Nine.

But how could Gildor read in Frodo's eyes that the Nine were pursuing him, if Frodo himself knew little or nothing about how they were, or at least did not know clearly that it was they who pursued him? The only satisfying answer I can come up with it that they already knew the Nazgul were about. But did they also know about the quest, why the Nine were after Frodo? No, says Gildor and I've no reason not to believe that. After all, if he knew Frodo were carrying the One ring which, if it came in the hands of the Nine, would surely put Middle Earth firmly in Sauron's grasp for an unforeseeable time, they would surely offer more assistance then a few reluctant pointers and a lecture about how little they care about the troubles of puny Hobbits and Men.

Odd, that. Maybe Gildor tapped into that foresight that is given at times to his people, and 'read a few chapters ahead.' And leaving the Hobbits with their burden was a deft plan to foil the enemy - nothing puts off Black Riders like random acts of stupidity (i.e. getting lost, getting caught by the Willow, getting caught by the Wights, putting on the Ring in Bree, etc).

Sounds like a good idea. I did the same this Sunday (minus the daughter) and even brought a camera. Here's a few samples of fall in Skåne, Sweden:

Great pictures! That cow looks dangerous.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But how could Gildor read in Frodo's eyes that the Nine were pursuing him, if Frodo himself knew little or nothing about how they were, or at least did not know clearly that it was they who pursued him?

Possibly because he had never seen such terror in the eyes of a hobbit? And possibly because the last time he had seen such terror in anyone's eyes, it was the result of an encounter with a Nazgul, whose chief weapon, we are told, is fear? Well, it's a mite of a long shot, but I suspect Gildor and his company, being wanderers, hear a lot of news and rumors that others might not. That Sauron has returned to Mordor is not uncommon knowledge, and at least some of the Nazgul have been active long before it was known he had returned. The Witch King, after all, merely fled the wars in Angmar; he was not defeated, and the Elves certainly knew it would only be a matter of time before he and the others became active again. It seems that outside the Shire, just about everyone is aware that evil things are stirring, and adding "terrifying evil" to "riders in Black" might very well make any Elf who's been around a while think "Nazgul."

Then again, maybe not, but what the heck.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I wonder what was that supposed to mean...???

Aren't you the one who people refer to as an elf? I thought I heard Nogrod talking about it somewhere in the Downs, but I might have been mistaken, sorry.

[Thinlómien]

I like this chapter very much. It has a wonderful atmosphere and it features two of my favourite minor characters - the fox and Gildor Inglorion. The fox - much discussed elsewhere, I think - is an intriguing little glimpse to something, and Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Originally Posted by alatar

And speaking of sniffing, why does Tolkien via mostly Pippin make such a big deal that the creatures hunt by smell, and yet later on this becomes a pretty boring detail?

Boring detail? Like, do you mean that it becomes a trivial fact and is not used anymore?

One thing I really admire in Tolkien's writing in this chapter is how the Nazgûl's visit to Hobbiton is organised. How Frodo hears the dialogue and almosts goes to talk with the Gaffer, and how Sam later expands upon this. It's what I would call masterful storytelling.

Also, I realised I like Sam less when I read about him in English than in Finnish. Weird.

And Pippin then, he gives me the impression of a young aristocrat on a nice little trip - which is what he is. But it never struck me like that. Actually, he reminds me (to an extent) of the men in the novels of Jane Austen, for example.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Boring detail? Like, do you mean that it becomes a trivial fact and is not used anymore?

Okay, look at from my point of view: even at an early age I was into science. We read about all of this sniffing. "Don't forget to ask about the sniffing!" It is emphasized, and so it must be important. Something completely unusual about these unearthly creatures...

And what does it all mean? That they smell our blood or something?

Does that mean that the Nazgul are going to the dogs?

[Groin Redbeard]

I'll wait for Nogrod to post before I move on to the next chapter since we still have a disscussion going on about Three Is Company.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Is it only a literary question (they shouldn't have too great a help with their journey for the storyline's sake) or are the elves so disenchanted with the ME that they just don't bother to help more?

I now cannot find where, but I am pretty sure this has been discussed (relatively, possibly this spring at most - maybe) recently in some thread, and there were some quite good and reasonable contributions to it. If I happen to find it, I will post a link here. I think some of the basic ideas were simply that it wasn't "their job", and ... but there was more to it. A pity I don't remember.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I now cannot find where, but I am pretty sure this has been discussed (relatively, possibly this spring at most - maybe) recently in some thread, and there were some quite good and reasonable contributions to it. If I happen to find it, I will post a link here. I think some of the basic ideas were simply that it wasn't "their job", and ... but there was more to it. A pity I don't remember.

I believe you mean this: The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I also referred to this particular chapter, Gildor, and the attitude of many Elves, in the "Is Legolas Afraid to get his Nails Dirty?" thread.

Strangely, when I first read LotR, I was much less impressed by the Black Rider in this chapter than I was with the wandering company of Elves. In reflection, it amazes me how many notable quotes came out in this chapter. "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards..."; "Go not to the Elves..."; "A star shines on the hour of our meeting" -- there may well be more, though I don't have the book on hand to check.

[Boromir88]

Nice to see people discussing.. and sad to see that dying down that easily. But let's go forwards!~Nogrod

Just waiting on your guidance sir.

One quick thing to point out before I leave, than I will properly respond. The very last sentence of the chapter...

...and the Elf led him to a bower beside Pippin, and he threw himself upon a bed and fell at once into a dreamless slumber.~Three is Company

Technically there never is a "dreamless" slumber, as we have countless dreams every night, we just don't remember them. But, just that idea of a "dreamless" slumber, once that is uninterrupting, a good, straight, replenishing sleep is pleasant. And of course, once Frodo leaves the Elves how many more of these "dreamless slumbers" does he really have?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Technically there never is a "dreamless" slumber, as we have countless dreams every night, we just don't remember them. But, just that idea of a "dreamless" slumber, once that is uninterrupting, a good, straight, replenishing sleep is pleasant. And of course, once Frodo leaves the Elves how many more of these "dreamless slumbers" does he really have?

Frodo's known for his vivid dreams, so its quite notable that he has a good night's sleep without being troubled by dreams. I know how he feels because I'm sick and fed up with having overly vivid dreams

But I often think it could have something to do with the 'difference' of Elves, maybe even with my old favourite topic, sanwe. It's quite possible the Elves helped him have that 'dreamless' sleep.

Very interesting though, as if I was writing about someone laying down to sleep in the company of Elves, I'd be more likely to write of someone having quite wild dreams

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But I often think it could have something to do with the 'difference' of Elves, maybe even with my old favourite topic, sanwe. It's quite possible the Elves helped him have that 'dreamless' sleep.

Very interesting though, as if I was writing about someone laying down to sleep in the company of Elves, I'd be more likely to write of someone having quite wild dreams

Yes, and that's exactly what this speaks about - the complete rest, as it was said early. And I am quite convinced that it was because of the Elves that he had this dreamless sleep.