Garrison for the Rammas Echor

[Rumil]

Hi all,

nice topic, agree with P-of-the-H points regarding protecting the farmland from small raiding parties etc but not useful versus a serious army.

Nobody has mentioned the Causeway Forts, admittedly we don't see much of them but they appear to be at the point the causeway from Osgiliath enters the Rammas, which is sensible. That's the outwork that Faramir nearly died defending. Of course they weren't much use against the whole army of Morgul but would presumably have been useful in keeping out medium-sized attacks from Osgiliath.

Maybe the Rammas was not only symbolic of defiance but also symbolised safety to the husbandmen of Gondor, in that they could safely farm within the circuit (no matter how illusory this safety turned out to be!).

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Maybe the Rammas was not only symbolic of defiance but also symbolised safety to the husbandmen of Gondor, in that they could safely farm within the circuit (no matter how illusory this safety turned out to be!).

Yes I agree Rumil. I think that's a major reason as to why it was built - to keep the husbandmen happy. I imagine that no one wanted to think that the attack would be on the scale it turned out to be!

[mark12_30]

There are other reasons to build a wall, right? Wolves, theives, skirmishes, raiding parties. People build walls, or fences, around simple gardens just to keep out the deer (ahem-- eight feet high, precious.)

As the darkness outside slowly thickened, building a wall probably seemed more reasonable than not having one. If you have a wall, then people know where to gather. If a raiding party of orcs lumbers over the horizon, the watchman blows a horn and we swap the pitchforks for the bows kept at the wall. Archers on the wall should do more damage and take less casualties, than a raggletag bunch of farmers with pitchforks, or shepherds with crooks.

I imagine the walls served their purpose more than once, before the War of the Ring erupted. Pelennor would not have been so green, I think, without the wall.

[Kent2010]

As it was, they now got the Bridge leading into the abandoned Ithilien (built a bridge for Sauron, so to say) and the Rammas that couldn't really guard Minas Tirith. Not too smart, precious...
-Gordis

I think that's a slight misrepresentation of Gondor's strategy. In June 3018, Sauron drove Gondor out of Ithilien and they held Osgiliath as long as possible:

...But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away.
...
Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came madness filled our foes, but fear bell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.
-The Council of Elrond

It's not like they just rebuilt a bridge so Sauron could have a free pass until he runs into a wall - a wall that was "useless." There were several levels of defense.

They held Osgiliath as long as possible, and wisely destroyed all the bridges. When Sauron decides he can and will cross, the Rammas Echor is just another significant obstacle for Sauron to get through. If anything Gandalf criticized Denethor for not finishing the wall soon enough and not calling in the armies sooner:

'Because I come seldom but when my help is needed,' answered Gandalf. 'And as for counsel, to you I would say that you are over-late in repairing the wall of the Pelennor. Courage will now be your best defence against the storm that is at hand - that and such hope as I bring. For not all the tidings that I bring are evil. But leave your trowels and sharpen your swords!'
-Minas Tirith

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I think that's a slight misrepresentation of Gondor's strategy. In June 3018, Sauron drove Gondor out of Ithilien and they held Osgiliath as long as possible:

No, Kent, I believe you have misunderstood me. I was speaking not of 3018, but of the time when the Bridge had been rebuilt.

Let me explain again. The exact quotes are in my previous post.

We know that the Rammas was built after Gondor had lost Ithilien (my first quote). It couldn't have happened in 3018, as you say - by this time Ithilien was already long lost (except for the secret Henneth Annun) and the Rammas was already old and ruined and needed repairs.
According to the Tale of Years "Most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it " in 2901. I think the Rammas was built then.

The bridge over the Anduin had been destroyed in 2475 (TY) and rebuilt "in the days of the youth of Denethor"(LOTR text). That would be 2930-2950. I think if the Rammas had been started in 2901, it would be completed around 2030-2040 - at the same time when the Bridge was rebuilt.
I think these events were linked: the Gondorians thought it safe to rebuild the Bridge because they now had the Rammas.
I may be wrong, but the dates seem to fit and there is some logic here.

Note that all these building projects happened BEFORE Sauron returned and declared himself officially in Mordor (2951). Before that, when only the Nazgul in Minas Morgul opposed Gondor, the war was slowly smoldering, but never any large-scale assault on Minas Tirith from Minas Morgul had been attempted.

It's not like they just rebuilt a bridge so Sauron could have a free pass until he runs into a wall - a wall that was "useless." There were several levels of defense.

It was not their intention, certainly - but when Sauron returned shortly after the bridge had been completed they must have realised their mistake. Yet they left the Bridge standing.

They held Osgiliath as long as possible, and wisely destroyed all the bridges. When Sauron decides he can and will cross, the Rammas Echor is just another significant obstacle for Sauron to get through.

Now what happened in June 3018? Sauron sent the Witch-King to attack the bridge of Osgiliath - and the bridge was obviously taken and held for some time (that enabled the Nazgul to cross the river.) Later, when the nazgul were gone and Mordor's objective accomplished, Gondor was able to rally and destroy the Bridge.

It was very fortunate for Gondor that this time Sauron employed only a fraction of his force without intention to attack Minas Tirith straight away with all his might. If he made his major stroke in June 3018, the Gondorians wouldn't have been able to destroy the bridge and Mordor's army would have been at the Gates of Minas Tirith very fast. The city would have likely been taken before the aid from Rohan could arrive.

If anything Gandalf criticized Denethor for not finishing the wall soon enough and not calling in the armies sooner:

I think Gandalf meant that now Denethor was only wasting time and effort on the Rammas. Rammas wouldn't help him now.

[Findegil]

Is it not always the case, that a outerdefense is supposed to be attackable to a greater degree then the main defense?

The Pelenor was not supposed to fend of a fullscale attack for ever. For that task Minas Tirith had a Wall. It was supposed to hold an enmy from some time and let the attacker pay for the crossing in greater numbers then the defenders to hold it that time. And in addition it was usefull in any smaller attacks.

When we consider how time critical the defense of Minas Tirith became in the end, I can only say that the hours that Faramir gained, saved the city.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aelfwine]

With respect to he Rammas, the use of walls as a means of defense was a traditional tactic throughout history. The distance between the Rammas and the city is very unusual, but the sheer size of the Rammas is in keeping with the monolithic construction typical to Gondorians. I agree with Mark that the primary purpose was not (or should not have been) defense against invasion, but rather more generalized protection. I also agree that to attempt to hold the Rammas against Sauron's army was folly. It is not defensible in that sense.

The timing of the rebuilding of the bridge and its correspondence with the construction of the Rammas was likely coincidence. If the Rammas was intended as defense against invasion, which it probably wasn't, the reason was the fact that Gondor's population had fallen to the point where it needed something other than manpower to help. Becuase I believe that the people of Gondor did not have any confidence in the Rammas as a true mechanism of defense, I similarly do not believe that the rebuilding of the bridge was the product of such confidence. The bridge of Osgiliath was not directly defense-related. Rather it served the need to provide necessary and easy access to the east bank of Anduin for the citizens and military of Gondor.

[Kuruharan]

While I agree with the symbolic significance of the wall...and its usefulness against raiders and such like...but I have to ask if it was all that useful why was the wall described as "partly ruinous" mere days before Sauron's onslaught?