T-I-G LXVII: The Rangers of the North - The Fell Winter

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kath

By the way Nerwen, I did vote on Day 1

Sorry, I must have missed it. Who did you vote for?

Originally Posted by Kath

I think it a little odd that she wanted to get a new lynch candidate in.

I brought up Loslote, if that's what you mean, because I thought either she or Valier could be evil, and because I didn't want the voting to end up as a single bandwagon. What's wrong with that?

EDIT:X'd with Kath.

[Nienna]

Sally: What think you about Kath?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm back much sooner than expected.

But tomorrow's my mama's birthday and my present for her isn't done (er... isn't started) so my afternoon's booked, since I don't want to work on it when she's here to see.

So I'll check in, but don't expect too much activity.

[satansaloser2005]

Nienna: I think she's okay. In fact....


++Kath for Captain

I won't complain if Nienna stays in, but if not her I think Kath would be okay too.

++Guard Nienna



I also think I'm going to lunch. Back later, and I'll tell you some stuffs about Lottie.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I also think I'm going to lunch. Back later, and I'll tell you some stuffs about Lottie.

Hurry up, I'm curious.

[Gwathagor]

No one here? Guess I'll go read what Roa said about Legate since I missed that day.

[Oh, crossed with Nienna]

[Nienna]

Roa: Day One

3. Starts the game on a productive note; asks people if they don’t want to be captain or NG
12. Wonders where the village is
22. Asks Rune why he wants to be captain; she has no logistical problem with being captain – I agree with Legate on this post… it seems almost like she set herself up to then answer the question
23. Finds Rune suspicious because he seems so eager
28. Is confused by Boro’s use of quotes
41. Asks Boro what other motive Fea could have for adding “nothing more complicated than that” to her retraction post where she used Boro to vote and retract. This seems like it could be a subtle defense of a packmate
55.

Originally Posted by Roa

A wolf could always try bluffing. And seeing as there are four wolves, they can try out more than one strategy to get one of themselves picked. I, for one, don’t believe that people who want power should have it. But a wolf could always be subtle: “Sure, you could vote for me, if you want… not that I care, or anything…”

This is eerily similar to what actually happened... like it could be a coincidence but it sounds like insider knowledge; comments about Boro’s behavior; says he didn’t really answer her and asks again
56. Another where is everyone post
60. Asks me a bunch of questions like who I suspect, etc.
62. Is probably going to vote someone who isn’t here for captain so that they can’t do any damage – I don’t particularly like this logic; Boro’s her top suspect, comments that no one is posting
63. Might actually vote someone who isn’t around as NG as apposed to captain I think
67. Defends her suspicion of Boro
72. Says that an innocent villager would act really helpful and make a lot of sense (just like Val suggests a wolf would do to get elected captain) and she says that if we start lynching people who are helpful we wouldn’t get anywhere – This seems like a “please don’t lynch me for being a helpful wolf because I could be a helpful ordo"
75. Frustrated by lack of posts, doesn’t want to lynch Boro because he is posting, defends Fea
93. Analyzes Nerwen: I doesn’t seem like she finds her suspicious
102. Analyzes Rune: says the most suspicious thing is his ploy for captain but says it seems like it might be too obvious for a wolf. Here’s the quote:

Originally Posted by Roa

It seems really obvious, almost too obvious for a wolf ploy, but then, I’ve pulled obvious stunts as a wolf before and gotten away with it…)

… The last sentence concerns me and it seems like she is trying to feel out how others will take him before deciding that way she can go either way and say it is wolfish or too bold to be a wolf.
103. Zil: only concerned that he isn’t around
112. Fea: says her posts are fine, expects a little more from her, wonders why she isn’t being aggressive. Seems a bit noncommittal
114: Strange logic about picking someone who isn’t around as captain. She seems to think that people who aren’t around for Day wouldn’t be around for Night so it would be safe to give the captaincy to them
125. Thinks that there might be a quiet wolf hiding, asks Rune why he wants to be captain
127. Votes to guard Brinn because “if I was a wolf, I'd kill her.” – and now Brinn is dead
131. Sally: finds her strange for not expanding on any of her suspicions
133. Suspects Boro and Hakon
145. Still suspects Hakon for being weird
153. Doesn’t trust Rune enough to make him captain so votes Legate for captain
159. In a matter of 26 posts goes from not even having Rune on her suspicion list to voting to lynch him (3 hours before deadline). She even said in 133 that she likes having 3 top suspects but could only come up with Boro and Hakon.
193. Thinks captains should be changed regularly
195. Doesn’t like Lottie jumping on something Val said
201. Doesn’t want people to NG her because she is too suspicious to be killed at night
204. Gives her suspicion of Rune after voting him
253. Jumps on Boro again

Day 2 to follow depending on how much time I have

Edit: x-ed with Gwath x3

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Ha ha. Seems like it would be a waste to endow with Captain powers someone who's not likely to a) be around enough to be able to use said powers in an informed way or b) even be around at DL to put said powers to use. Right? But consider this - while it may look for all the world like Roa is trying to establish some sort of artificial, damning ties with another player (me), she may also be just trying to force me to be more involved. As you can see, it's working.

Ha, okay, if it works like that, then okay

Originally Posted by Nienna

Roa: Day One

3. Starts the game on a productive note; asks people if they don’t want to be captain or NG

Well, actually... that was one thing that I praised on first sight, but later it was one of the things which made me worried about Roa. Because again, this thing has two edges, whereas they may not be so apparent on first sight. The reason why I didn't mention it earlier is first what I already said (I didn't want to pull out the case against Roa very early in case she was innocent and the Wolves tried to frame her), and second that I am not sure if the thing I assumed it might mean worked out. The explanation of what is "the thing I assumed it meant", i.e. what I thought Roa's question might have been misused for, will follow.

To quote it precisely, in her very first post, the first post of the Day, the very first post on the thread, Roa said:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Alright, there is no doubt that this is a very complicated game with a lot of ways to die. So, let's get the most complicated thing out the way first- captain. Is there anyone who for any reason does NOT want to be captain (either for RL reasons, not comfortable with the role, etc.)? At least that will narrow down the options while we pick each other apart with angry paranoia.

Later, Hakon mentioned that we should take care not to vote Gifted for a Captain. It took quite a long while before somebody pointed it out, but it was a very, very serious point which made me aware of it - of course we should not be voting for a Gifted, as he won't be able to perform his Nightly tasks as a Captain. Understandable, is it? Well, but what does that mean? What can the thing Roa asked actually be used for?

Well, I think you already know the answer: for revealing Gifteds! Because: if what I said above is true (i.e. that Gifteds would not like to be chosen as Captain), then if you ask a Gifted whether he wants to be a Captain, the answer would be rather "no". And that means that you could theoretically determine who the Gifteds are based on what people have answered. And as a Wolf, you could then adapt the easy technique "let's kill everybody who answered 'no' and thus way we wipe out all the Gifteds".

Of course it is just theoretical model. It depends on many things, nobody says a Gifted could not answer "yes" genuinely, or be aware of the danger of being exposed and rather say "yes" even though he doesn't want to, but it's something which the Wolves might give a shot, just to see if perchance they can succeed in exposing somebody. Also, if ordos unisono reply "yes, no problem" and don't realise what this answer could mean - because they are not bothered by the idea as much as Gifteds could be and wouldn't necessarily think about the danger hidden in that - then they basically open the space for the Wolves to see, as they throw the Gifteds into a situation where the Gifted thinks "ok, everybody answered 'yes' with no hesitation, I would have preferred to avoid this topic, but now everybody answered and I need to answer, or I would stand out and be noticed, but I need to lie, or I would be noticed" or something like that.

So all in all, this is really one of the things that made me worried about Roa . I am also unsure whether she would have asked the question she asked had she been innocent, I think she's clever and she would have realised what it could be misused for.

EDIT: x-ed with three Gwaths

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But I'm not, in fact, entirely convinced a wolf would want to be a Captain. Maybe they wouldn't mind the tie-breaking normally, but when it comes to breaking a tie between a fellow and an innocent? Either decision can be dangerous. And would they want to manipulate innocents in Nightly discussions or would they dread the extra chance to get caught? I think it's more about individual wolves (and incidentally, I would see Roa and Legate as wolves wanting to be Captains, whereas I wouldn't want to be one - not because of the tie-thing, I can do that, but because I would not want innocents questioning me during the Night-time...).

Here's my take: the wolves don't need to get one of their number into the Captain at the beginning of the game, since the innocents are more than likely to kill each other anyway - but as the game progresses, it will become more and more important for the wolves to have that lynch-canceling, tie-breaking power of a Captain. Maybe it's not a problem now, but it certainly will be in a Day or two. We'll have to be extra careful who we elect.

Sorry I've been gone so much.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, just a note. Even if you were innocent, I think this is a rather unclever way of thinking. If you are afraid of having a Cap in power for too long, is putting totally random people into power any better? And okay, nothing against Gwath, but he certainly hasn't been around the most, and I didn't notice that you would have expressed any strong feeling of his innocentishness in order to make you vote him. (And if it's a bait for us to start suspecting Gwath after you are lynched and revealed as a Wolf, then I am not going to take it, at least. But let's see.)

Ha ha. Seems like it would be a waste to endow with Captain powers someone who's not likely to a) be around enough to be able to use said powers in an informed way or b) even be around at DL to put said powers to use. Right? But consider this - while it may look for all the world like Roa is trying to establish some sort of artificial, damning ties with another player (me), she may also be just trying to force me to be more involved. As you can see, it's working.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Here's my take: the wolves don't need to get one of their number into the Captain at the beginning of the game, since the innocents are more than likely to kill each other anyway - but as the game progresses, it will become more and more important for the wolves to have that lynch-canceling, tie-breaking power of a Captain. Maybe it's not a problem now, but it certainly will be in a Day or two. We'll have to be extra careful who we elect.

Hey, now that was a really, really good point and well said - so I think enough to excuse you for being away for long otherwise. (That doesn't mean, though, that I'd be encouraging you in being away ) Anyway, that's just what I thought of at this moment - it's not a problem yet, but definitely for the future, let's say in a Day or two, I would be against having Captain for more than one Day. Now before everybody of the "no power for Captains" party starts shouting "We were telling you from the very beginning!", I emphasise that it goes for the late Days, when a lynch-cancelling power in an innocent's hands would be more powerful than ever, but in Wolf's hands even more disasterous than ever. With many people in the village, the Wolves will yet, I believe, not dare to misuse the lynch-cancel in any drastic way. Because if they did, they would need to explain themselves and may end up lynched themselves. But in the end, there might as well remain nobody to perform the justice on them. Thus, if our numbers thin in the future, then I am against multiple Captain Days.

And maybe even... once the Captain loses the power to communicate with his Nightly mates (not sure when this occurs, maybe it's only with some really low number of players, but anyway), maybe from that point on it would be the best to have no Captain at all. (But certainly not as long as he still can elect his BG! That is a VERY strong means to protect fellow villagers.)

EDIT: x-ed since the post I quoted

[Gwathagor]

Continuing with this theoretical train of thought, eventually it might even be best to elect no Captain at all unless they are practically a known innocent. Theoretically.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Continuing with this theoretical train of thought, eventually it might even be best to elect no Captain at all unless they are practically a known innocent. Theoretically.

Oh sorry Legate, you already said this.

[Gwathagor]

Ha, here's an idea - Legate, I'd be interested to hear you summarize what Roa's arguments against you are. It would be informative to hear your perspective on it. Plus I'm lazy and don't feel like trying to find the original posts.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And maybe even... once the Captain loses the power to communicate with his Nightly mates (not sure when this occurs, maybe it's only with some really low number of players, but anyway), maybe from that point on it would be the best to have no Captain at all.

Originally Posted by the Rules about the Captaincy

He will appoint to him two bodyguards (with 18-13 villagers, with 12-7 he chooses one and with 6 or less there are no BG’s anymore)

So with 6 players left there will be no BG's, nor NG's to that matter, and the Captain will stay up the Nights alone... vulnerable to attacks as anyone else.