WWLXXI: Something in the Night (Attempt #2)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, we lost our Seer, but it's not over yet, folks. We can still win this, unless you've given up?

This must be the single most wolvish-looking sentence for toDay.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I was a bit concerned yesterDay with the way Wilwa seemed to be hanging on Sally's every word, and making what appeared to be a concerted effort to appear helpful and innocent.

I do agree. And not only that, but also trying to get an innocent lynched with all her effort...


But as I see there are many voicing the idea (late yesterDay and toDay) that I'm one of the top candidates I think some speaking of sense would be in place to begin with.

Originally Posted by Inzil

However, I think Nog looks worse than she at this point. I noted the way he seemed unwilling to take the hint from Sally that he should vote Izzy, needing a full admission from Sally about her dream before voting for her, even though he had thrown out some weak suspicion of Izzy. Sally had obviously not wanted to reveal the dream just yet, and it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Nog missing the hints.

Well I think I have a few things to say on this issue...

First of all, how did this thought of us knowing Sally had dreamt a wolf come from? At least to me it was not obvious and I didn't find it even now looking back the thread.

Sally said in her first post as an answer to alona's question "any luck dreaming of a wolf?" the following (boldings mine):

Originally Posted by Sally

As a matter of fact I might have. However....
Since toDay may be my last Day -again- I'd like to leave you lot a bit of something to chew on. That being said, I will reveal my dream(s) at the end of the Day. With the information I have (or even without it) we've nearly a 50/50 chance of lynching a wolf, which will greatly increase our chances of winning.

To me and my understanding of English-language that seems like far from clear she had a wolf. Actually it looks like the contrary - but she was clearly wishing to play games with the wolves (like saying she had two wolves the Day before etc.). So at least I took that as something I couldn't and shouldn't rely on.

But actually that is no big deal - unless some wolves are trying to use wrong information (that we knew she had a wolf) as "evidence" to their fabricated cases against innocents.

If you Inzil, or anyone, go back the thread you see an interesting thing I only realised when Sally revealed Izzy was a wolf. She had suspected me the whole Day quite heavily, but after I had voiced my suspicions on Izzy here and entertained the idea whether I should actually vote her, Sally's tone actually changed. After wilwa rushed on to call me a likely wolf she actually said that:

Originally Posted by Sally

I'm not sure on him yet so I'd rather not vote him toDay. He's said some things these last few posts that make me think he really is innocent.

Now why should that be? Well, in hindsight it looks quite clear: she saw I hit the right target and was thinking of voting her - and I had come to that conclusion without her helping me out with it, so I was an innocent - as I am.

Think carefully: if I was a wolf, I would need to have psychic powers to foresee it would be Izzy whom Sally had dreamt of and then make a case against her before Sally revealed her knowledge, just to look good. So sorry, you're grasping at straws here. Or should I say you're trying to get an innocent lynched on purpose?

Also you say I had made some "weak suspicions" on Izzy as a kind of downplaying of what I said there! Now that's wolf-talk as the wolves are the only ones to know for certain. I was actually a bit proud of myself to have noticed the sneakiness of her post (referred to up here) and to really take it seriously enough to consider voting her, or wilwa who seemed to be too busy trying to convince everyone why I should be lynched.

I had already come to the conclusion earlier that either Izzy or wilwa should be a wolf - or they both are / were (look here for details). But that early thought was based only on speculation on the PM-pairs (no wolf-wolf pair around that is), and as I had seen that many of you were wrong about the pairs (thinking there were no ordo-ordo pairs which I know is false), I had thought I could be wrong too about the pairs. But with Izzy's post and wilwa's willingness they both looked suspicious to me - and kind of confirmed my initial suspicions based on the PM-pairs.

You Inzil also say I was unwilling to "take the hint" from Sally to vote for Izzy! Now let's see what happened.

First of all I (or you) didn't know Sally had a wolf bagged. But she had kept me and Izzy as her two main candidates the first part of the Day - leaning on voting me rather than Izzy. As an innocent that was a sign for me that her open suspicions were as ungrounded as anyone's, so there was no particular reason for me to think she had dreamt of Izzy as she was so wrong with me.

When I had thought of voting Izzy, she said:

Originally Posted by Sally

Nog, Izzy isn't the ranger, so if you need to go to bed she's a safe vote.

That actually just says what it says. If she had no wolf and Izzy was not the ranger or the ordo she had dreamt of, she would say something like that - if she was willing to see how the wolves reacted to the insecurity of her dream (which I think she had in mind). And that's how I took it.

The second "hint" she gave was this (after I had mulled over whether to vote for Izzy or wilwa):

Originally Posted by Sally

If my opinion matters, I'd prefer Izzy. I think Wilwa's probably innocent.

My reaction to that was:

Originally Posted by me

I actually disagree here even if I'm suspecting Izzy as well. Wilwa looks so opportunistic to press for an interpretation I know is not true that it makes me suspect her more (for is she were a wolf that would suit her just perfectly!) - not to talk of her voting I referred to earlier.

Or are you implying Izzy is in fact a wolf?

Then I waited for her to comment on my question, taking that out from my sleep which anyway was getting short... 'nuff said I think.

So Inzil, to borrow your exact words, "it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Inzil missing the" points. So do I have to conclude you're one of our last wolves trying to push an already suspected innocent towards the gallows to ensure the wolf-victory? Were you perhaps a bit too overconfident?


Well, I need to think about the last two wolves, but if I'd need to vote right now, I'd say Inzil and wilwa... but I really need to look at the pairs again - as well as the discussion yesterDay after I left. So that may change.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all, how did this thought of us knowing Sally had dreamt a wolf come from? At least to me it was not obvious and I didn't find it even now looking back the thread.

Sally said in her first post as an answer to alona's question "any luck dreaming of a wolf?" the following (boldings mine): To me and my understanding of English-language that seems like far from clear she had a wolf. Actually it looks like the contrary - but she was clearly wishing to play games with the wolves (like saying she had two wolves the Day before etc.). So at least I took that as something I couldn't and shouldn't rely on.

Okay, so this might get me in trouble, but I'm going to say it anyway for clarity's sake especially now that Sally's been killed. Since she and I were on for most of yesterDay, we ended up talking about the game while simultaneously posting on the thread. The main point of our conversation was covered and posted on the thread when Sally basically asked if it was all right if I sacrificed myself as a lynch so the Ranger wouldn't get lynched. Now, at the time, I was okay with her setting me up as the Ranger as a hopeful hint to the wolves to go after me instead of trying to lynch or Night kill the real Ranger.

Because I'd been privy to this information, my posts yesterDay were written based on the knowledge that Sally had in fact dreamed a wolf. I think everyone assumed Sally had dreamed a wolf at that point - and she certainly gave that impression the way she was posting and how she was talking.

Nog, breaking a post down word by word might be helpful to catch a slip by a wolf, but in Sally's case, I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of what she said could have misdirects, and I think that's what the whole "might" business was.

And to use some logic you used in making a case against me earlier, it feels like your post could go one of two ways: an innocent vehemently defending himself in order to preserve the village numbers or a wolf throwing a fellow pack mate under the bus. I'm leaning towards the first, but am not disregarding the second just yet.

Your reasoning does seem sound, but knowing what I know after talking and posting with Sally after all of most yesterDay, there's just something that doesn't sit completely right with me.

I've got to leave for work now, but I'll be back roughly an hour and a half before DL or so, depending on traffic on the way home.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by alonariel

Since she and I were on for most of yesterDay, we ended up talking about the game while simultaneously posting on the thread.

Well... what to say?

One is not supposed to chat about the game with other players while the game is going on. Really. The game is played in the game thread, not in msn, Twitter, FB, e-mail or so. Every thought you have you either keep with yourself or share it with others publicly. That's the name of the game.

There have been a few major rows on the issue in the past - resulting in some people signing off from WW for good. So please alona, play with the rules (there was this thing with Lari as well). Hold your horses my friend!

Originally Posted by alona

Nog, breaking a post down word by word might be helpful to catch a slip by a wolf, but in Sally's case, I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of what she said could have misdirects, and I think that's what the whole "might" business was.

Wasn't that exactly what I said - that I thought she was "playing games" with the wolves and thus decided not to take this or that she said at the face-value?



Inzil. Are you becoming this desperate?

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, Wilwa made this comment:

And this was Sally's response.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Right. But those posts you quote are actually cross-posts with my post where I ask if Sally is hinting that Izzy is indeed a wolf and she knows it! So that discussion took place right at the time I was about to vote - so you can't quite say I "should have known it" before that exchange of thoughts occured, ten minutes before my vote!

So what are you aiming at Inzil? Why do you try twist everything to get me lynched? I know the wolves would love to lynch an innocent toDay though and looking at how the Day began I was clearly their best bet to victory... but sorry, I'll challenge you on that.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One is not supposed to chat about the game with other players while the game is going on. Really. The game is played in the game thread, not in msn, Twitter, FB, e-mail or so. Every thought you have you either keep with yourself or share it with others publicly. That's the name of the game.

There have been a few major rows on the issue in the past - resulting in some people signing off from WW for good. So please alona, play with the rules (there was this thing with Lari as well). Hold your horses my friend!

Eeek I know...seriously, I'm considering just not signing on MSN while I'm in a WW game from now on.


Oh dear, why did so much have to happen while I was at work?? Arg. Okay, so impressions from the post:

Inzil and Nog are at each other's throats. It's either wolf-on-wolf setting up for one of them to look good at the end of toDay. Or ordo-on-ordo which blows because of our numbers and already stated reasons about what happens if we lynch an ordo and the Ranger doesn't protect the right person toNight.

Shasta's few posts today make me very uneasy. I didn't see Wilwa's comments as back pedaling at all, merely a post to get the conversation going or, like Nog suggested, a possible trap for wolves. Yes, his post about Sally's misdirect could be valid, but with just a few posts he has jumped to the top of my suspect list.

And then there's Nog! Who defended himself vehemently. The way his posts went made me think he was a very ticked off ordo - or an extremely clever wolf. Like I said before I left for work, I am leaning towards the first, though after all the posts toDay, the second isn't off the table yet.

Ugh, I think I'll wait to see if anyone else posts. DL isn't that a bad time for me and with how dire the situation is, I'll hold off for as long as I can til I vote.


Voting thus far:

Nog -> Shasta
Wilwa -> Inzil

[Lariren Shadow]

So is no one else here?

As for voting, I'm more inclinded to go with the whole not voting for any girls because Alona and Wilwa are not at all suspcious to me.

Nog seems to have talked himself into a corner, and come out with Shasta as guilty and constantly stated that he is innocent. I'm not sure how to feel about this. He seems to be saying he's innocent way too much in those.

And then Shasta and Inzil both have votes. While Shasta looked suspicious yesterDay he seems much better to me toDay. And Inzil...well PM buddy.

[Gwathagor]

Man, you people had better start voting.

[Lariren Shadow]

And we're really close to the deadline and still to vote: me, Alona, Shasta, and Inzil. Great.

[alonariel]

It's getting close so here we go. No girls because of the possibility the Ranger is a she. Though my newfound suspicion of Shasta is unsettling, I've got more of a feel on Nog at this point.

So, here goes:

++Nog

[Lariren Shadow]

Ok, I'm going with the no girls.

And I'm now not really sure about Shasta, he's beginning to look less guilty to me, and I don't really want to vote Inzil. Which leaves me with voting Nog. His talking toDay seemed rather to proclaim he was innocent and talk in circles. It doesn't feel right.

++Nog

[Inziladun]

I'm here.

Nog was strange toDay. I still don't understand why he put all that effort into going after me, only to abandon it at the last minute. And it was awfully odd how he didn't find much to note about me until I pushed him. I think we have a very likely wolf in one of them, but not both.

x/d with alona and Lari

[Inziladun]

Let's hope for the best.


++Nog

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all, how did this thought of us knowing Sally had dreamt a wolf come from? At least to me it was not obvious and I didn't find it even now looking back the thread.

Well, Wilwa made this comment:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Uhm. Sally I really hope you have a wolf. Cause if you do the math, we lose if we don't lynch a wolf toDay.

And this was Sally's response.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I do. Honestly, I do, so don't worry. If I didn't I would have told you by now. And I have more or less absolute faith in our sweet ranger because they love me and are clever.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If you Inzil, or anyone, go back the thread you see an interesting thing I only realised when Sally revealed Izzy was a wolf. She had suspected me the whole Day quite heavily, but after I had voiced my suspicions on Izzy here and entertained the idea whether I should actually vote her, Sally's tone actually changed. After wilwa rushed on to call me a likely wolf she actually said that: Now why should that be? Well, in hindsight it looks quite clear: she saw I hit the right target and was thinking of voting her - and I had come to that conclusion without her helping me out with it, so I was an innocent - as I am.

If Sally was confident you were going to vote for Izzy, why was she compelled to make a full reveal of her dream? It certainly appeared to be for your benefit.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all I (or you) didn't know Sally had a wolf bagged. But she had kept me and Izzy as her two main candidates the first part of the Day - leaning on voting me rather than Izzy. As an innocent that was a sign for me that her open suspicions were as ungrounded as anyone's, so there was no particular reason for me to think she had dreamt of Izzy as she was so wrong with me.

See above.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Inzil, to borrow your exact words, "it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Inzil missing the" points. So do I have to conclude you're one of our last wolves trying to push an already suspected innocent towards the gallows to ensure the wolf-victory? Were you perhaps a bit too overconfident?

'Already suspected'? I thought you looked off yesterDay. I'm not convinced, Nog. I still don't think Wilwa looks as bad as you,

[Nogrod]

I only really realised this now looking back at the posts for toDay! RED ALERT!

Originally Posted by wilwa

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, it would help narrow the field (assuming a wolf didn't make a false reveal), but the Ranger is the best weapon we have at this point. So I'm not sure.

And the suspects are not a surprise to me...


There are six of us left of which two are wolves, 4 against 2.

If we lynch wrong toDay there will be 3 against 2 facing the Night. Then if the wolves succeed in their Night kill it will be 2 against 2 come morning and we've lost. Game over.

So have we any hope if we don't lynch right toDay? The ranger could do the trick. But if she (yeah, prolly) reveals toDay she will be killed and it is game over.

So stay hidden ranger! You're our last stand if we miss it toDay.

Wilwa and Inzil... I'm really looking at you now.

[wilwarin538]

Nog, I said "So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight."I didn't say "Hey, I think the Ranger should totally reveal right now."

I was simply putting the idea out there because yesterDay I had brought it up,(though I was basing that on the idea that we'd perhaps have another of Sally's dreams toDay, and someone else would have died last Night, so our pool of unknowns would have been smaller and we may have gained more from the Ranger revealing, we're in a different situation then I was hoping for) I wasn't saying we should definitely go for it, it was more for everyone's consideration incase there was some benefit to the reveal that I hadn't thought of. I see now there isn't, so it's a bad idea, so she should obviously stay quite.


On another not, ya know what I don't get? Why I always seem to be suspected for being too "willing", or too "helpful".

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Nog, I said "So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight."I didn't say "Hey, I think the Ranger should totally reveal right now."

True.

Even if I think it was a bad topic-opening in principle - unless we think of it as a trap that Inzil was more or less caught in with. Yes he went to and fro, but he was not willing to state the obvious eg. he was willing to see if the ranger would be fool enough to reveal herself?

For that I could thank you and bow for the great trap you made... but as you understand I can't be sure about you - like I can't be sure about anyone. Maybe it was you two who tried to make it feel like the ranger should come forwards?

I don't know. But now I think we should probably lynch Inzil to buy us another Day to play.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't know. But now I think we should probably lynch Inzil to buy us another Day to play.

Ya know what, I'd be willing to do that. It was between you and him anyway.

There is this part of me that thinks you're guilty (mainly due to my lover pairing theory), and then this other part of me that so badly wants to believe you, cause I know that if I was in an ord-ord pairing, and no one thought that an ord-ord pairing excisted, I would be freaking out a bit. So, I'm empathizing with you here....

But then the part of me that thinks your guilty also thinks you're trying to set Inzil up. I don't know anymore....

I do know that a few days ago I was suspicious of Inzil, and not of Nog. So I might decide to go off my original gut....I might not....I don't know....

Then there is the part of me who feels bad for suspecting my Lover from the first attempt, who was so sweet and nice....but totally a wolf

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Are you becoming this desperate?
Right. But those posts you quote are actually cross-posts with my post where I ask if Sally is hinting that Izzy is indeed a wolf and she knows it! So that discussion took place right at the time I was about to vote - so you can't quite say I "should have known it" before that exchange of thoughts occured, ten minutes before my vote!

So what are you aiming at Inzil? Why do you try twist everything to get me lynched? I know the wolves would love to lynch an innocent toDay though and looking at how the Day began I was clearly their best bet to victory... but sorry, I'll challenge you on that.

I'm not 'twisting' your words. That post of Wilwa's came at 5:16 PM, my time, with Sally's response at 5:18. Between then and when Sally revealed her dream at 5:28 (at which time you then voted) you had two additional posts, with no note of x/ posting with Sally.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, I'm afraid you talk of another thing I do. But well, whatever. I'm just afraid.

I actually disagree here even if I'm suspecting Izzy as well. Wilwa looks so opportunistic to press for an interpretation I know is not true that it makes me suspect her more (for is she were a wolf that would suit her just perfectly!) - not to talk of her voting I referred to earlier.

Or are you implying Izzy is in fact a wolf?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay. Bedtime for me then.

If you Sally don't think it wise to reveal your dream then let's just cross our fingers there are enough ordos to vote for the wolf... YesterDay three people didn't vote and with these numbers the wolves could easily outvote us if not everybody voted.

Sorry Sally, but not a Day for nice traps. I can't stay awake for long now - and if I vote the wrong way we might lose the Day and the game as then it takes only one ordo not to vote and we can be busted.

It just looks to me as if you ignored plain words that Sally knew a wolf, were reluctant to vote Izzy at her suggestion, and instead waited for her to make an outright reveal.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Even if I think it was a bad topic-opening in principle - unless we think of it as a trap that Inzil was more or less caught in with. Yes he went to and fro, but he was not willing to state the obvious eg. he was willing to see if the ranger would be fool enough to reveal herself?

Now who's reaching? Caught in a trap? I admitted it could give us a known innocent to work with, but also said the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

NowI admitted it could give us a known innocent to work with, but also said the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way.

You didn't care to mention that if the wolves know the identity of the ranger it is game over in the morning if we don't lynch a wolf toDay...

And you didn't actually say "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way" but you said:

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, it would help narrow the field (assuming a wolf didn't make a false reveal), but the Ranger is the best weapon we have at this point. So I'm not sure.

And you're really reaching /streching out with your other comments. I'll comment on them in a moment... just a cigarette first (bad for your health, never start smoking).