WWLXXI: Something in the Night (Attempt #2)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Are you becoming this desperate?
Right. But those posts you quote are actually cross-posts with my post where I ask if Sally is hinting that Izzy is indeed a wolf and she knows it! So that discussion took place right at the time I was about to vote - so you can't quite say I "should have known it" before that exchange of thoughts occured, ten minutes before my vote!

So what are you aiming at Inzil? Why do you try twist everything to get me lynched? I know the wolves would love to lynch an innocent toDay though and looking at how the Day began I was clearly their best bet to victory... but sorry, I'll challenge you on that.

I'm not 'twisting' your words. That post of Wilwa's came at 5:16 PM, my time, with Sally's response at 5:18. Between then and when Sally revealed her dream at 5:28 (at which time you then voted) you had two additional posts, with no note of x/ posting with Sally.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, I'm afraid you talk of another thing I do. But well, whatever. I'm just afraid.

I actually disagree here even if I'm suspecting Izzy as well. Wilwa looks so opportunistic to press for an interpretation I know is not true that it makes me suspect her more (for is she were a wolf that would suit her just perfectly!) - not to talk of her voting I referred to earlier.

Or are you implying Izzy is in fact a wolf?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay. Bedtime for me then.

If you Sally don't think it wise to reveal your dream then let's just cross our fingers there are enough ordos to vote for the wolf... YesterDay three people didn't vote and with these numbers the wolves could easily outvote us if not everybody voted.

Sorry Sally, but not a Day for nice traps. I can't stay awake for long now - and if I vote the wrong way we might lose the Day and the game as then it takes only one ordo not to vote and we can be busted.

It just looks to me as if you ignored plain words that Sally knew a wolf, were reluctant to vote Izzy at her suggestion, and instead waited for her to make an outright reveal.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Even if I think it was a bad topic-opening in principle - unless we think of it as a trap that Inzil was more or less caught in with. Yes he went to and fro, but he was not willing to state the obvious eg. he was willing to see if the ranger would be fool enough to reveal herself?

Now who's reaching? Caught in a trap? I admitted it could give us a known innocent to work with, but also said the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

NowI admitted it could give us a known innocent to work with, but also said the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way.

You didn't care to mention that if the wolves know the identity of the ranger it is game over in the morning if we don't lynch a wolf toDay...

And you didn't actually say "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way" but you said:

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, it would help narrow the field (assuming a wolf didn't make a false reveal), but the Ranger is the best weapon we have at this point. So I'm not sure.

And you're really reaching /streching out with your other comments. I'll comment on them in a moment... just a cigarette first (bad for your health, never start smoking).

[wilwarin538]

So confused...

Can I vote for both of you? That would make my life way easier....like vote for Nogadun or Inzilrod....

I'm starting to think you could both be wolves, and are going at each other so that when one gets lynched the other looks better.

I'd like to know what Shasta thinks too. And maybe more from Lari and Alona, so my femininity doesn't get overpowered by all this testosterone....

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I'm starting to think you could both be wolves, and are going at each other so that when one gets lynched the other looks better.

Hold your imagination and look at the arguments.


But it is true what you say, that one would like to see more contributions from Shasta and Lari.

Shasta has the show to rehearse (or something like that) and that's a decent reason for not posting too much - but at this kind of game it could be quite crucial as well. And if he is a wolf... well I'm afraid we can't afford to just check it right now as a mislynch toDay will more or less end the game (unless the wolves don't hit the ranger and s/he manages to save someone).

If he is a wolf and wins I'd say the moral victory is not theirs. And it is not something to blame on Shasta if he is busy, but a question of the overall rl conditions (although one might ask why join a game if one has no time to play?). So I will be disregarding Shasta for toDay at least. Whatever follows.

Lari is a harder case. I don't remember her saying she wouldn't be able to contribute and she has been the most quiet all the time (second least posts thus far after Glirdan who died on D1!). But unlike Shasta, when she posts she has at least tried to say something - but soo carefully it hurts!

I'd think the same would apply to her: I will think her win as a wolf would be morally worthless and thus void in my eyes at least. In this small a game we just can't afford doing away with the submarines first as the numbers are falling so fast.

Please Shasta and Lari, post, play the game if you're in it!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You're right, Nog, I shouldn't have signed up for this game. But asking for a modkill at this point in the game would doom the innocents, so I'll do my best (I do, however, have rehearsal in an hour and I'm not sure how long it's going to last).

For now, two major points.

1. People who are pushing the whole "The Ranger has GOT to be female" are looking extremely shady to me.

2. I think that Wilwa's backpedaling on the revealing of the Ranger-issue looks fishy, but then I think Inzil is fishy too.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

1. People who are pushing the whole "The Ranger has GOT to be female" are looking extremely shady to me.

Why? Sally referred to the Ranger as a she, I see it as likely that she did that so that we'd have an idea of who the Ranger could be, since there was about the same number of guys and girls, without her having to reveal them (since that would put the Ranger in danger). She could have done it so that if a few days went by and she was dead we would have a hint about the Ranger and be able to limit our group of unknowns (or like if a guy-wolf tried to false reveal or something we'd know not to believe them). It just seems quite clearly like something Sally would do. You seem to be the only one who doesn't think so.

I don't know, we could all be wrong of course and she was just messing with us.
But either way I don't find the girls suspicious anyway, even if Sally had never done the whole "she" thing I still would not have looked at them suspiciously.

Backpedaling? I never said I thought the Ranger should reveal, I asked what people thought about the Ranger revealing. Those are two different things.

Anyway, I'm going to go eat some pumpkin pie and watch Jack Bauer. Be back later.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now wilwa's post asking Sally about her having a wolf was posted at 01.16 and Sally answered 01.18 (three minutes before my post was posted). That post of mine 01.21 was a cross post - with both of them.

All right, Nog. But the problem was it wasn't apparent you'd cross-posted. Surely you see that. It looked as if you'd just been ignoring things, since you didn't note a cross-post at the time.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Then I went back reading what was said and thought about the implications - and I do actually remember reading wilwa's post from 01.22. (so I had first read the few posts that were posted prior to my 01.21 and thought about them, and only then posted my next one which was finally posted at 01.28)Which I thought was straight to the point. And it was only now I kind of knew Sally had a wolf! So after thinking a while I realised the situation was urgent indeed. And I said this on post that was sent on 01.28 So I was concerned that I might vote the wrong way and decided to wait yet a moment even if it was about 1.30AM and I had an early morning call to see whether Sally would help and stop playing her otherwise nice game with the wolves as the situation was dire enough without the "game" she wished to play. I was thinking about the general situation... the previous Day three people didn't vote, and looking at our numbers there such many non-voters against three wolves would mean that we could be outvoted if just a few of us voted the wrong way (if Sally would reveal only near the DL!). Just look back at how Lottie got lynched! Not with a bang but a whimper.

Therefore I urged her to reveal earlier than later.

And you Inzil should have seen the direness of our situation there.

I'll admit Sally's caginess was causing me some consternation as well, but I'd be willing to let her have things her way, since she had made it clear (to me, at least) that she had a wolf.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So first you said "not sure" and then claimed you said you were against it (after I had pointed out it would lead to game over) which you weren't.

Sorry, you're grasping at straws here. And I was well aware when I responded to Wilwa that a false lynch would be fatal. As I said, I didn't point it out because Wilwa had just done so.

You do make an impassioned defence, Nog.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'll admit Sally's caginess was causing me some consternation as well, but I'd be willing to let her have things her way, since she had made it clear (to me, at least) that she had a wolf.

Well I think you miss the point here. Lari had voted for Shasta already and so basically another vote not for the wolf Sally had caught could have led to a situation where the wolves could have run over us with their votes and win. And I needed to get to sleep. It was too risky.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Sorry, you're grasping at straws here. And I was well aware when I responded to Wilwa that a false lynch would be fatal. As I said, I didn't point it out because Wilwa had just done so.

Actually what wilwa said was:

Originally Posted by wilwa

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

She didn't say the game would be over if the ranger dies! And how come you claim you were on top of the things as an innocent if you answered that post by wilwa by saying that there are pros and cons and that you're not sure which would be the best option - if you claim you knew the game would end if we missed?

Originally Posted by Inzil

You do make an impassioned defence, Nog.

If the dl would be better I'd be easier as I could follow the day through but sadly I need to leave like now and everything that happens after I'm gone is out of my reach; so I feel I need to make my case strongly enough so that we stand a chance of there being toMorrow.

x'd with Shasta and Inzil

[Nogrod]

Sally talked of the ranger as a she. Whatever the status of that claim might be, we should take that into consideration. And Sally didn't give us a name (was wise enough not to).

Now, if the ranger is lynched we lose. It is game over.

If the ranger is killed during the Night we lose before the next Day breaks as well - unless we get a wolf toDay. And if we lynch a female toDay who is not a wolf they have easier task to guess on the ranger the coming Night (as there are less females to choose from). So let us leave them as many females as possible to pick from the coming Night so that there are better chances of them getting it wrong.

So let's lynch a male toDay.

It means either

me
Shasta
Inzil

I know I'm an innocent myself.

I have already said I'm afraid we just can't afford a shot in the dark with trying Shasta. Although now seeing Shasta posting and actually contesting the whole "female-ranger" idea makes me think again... bah, I thought I could get to bed now.

Heh, as soon I started to feel better about wilwa - because of realising her concern about Sally revealing early enough so that the wolves couldn't mess the votes yesterDay - Shasta says wilwa was backpedalling on the ranger-reveal -issue, which is not true - while it could be argued Inzil did that, and Shasta's "weak suspicion" "but then I think Inzil is fishy too" looks very much like a wolf-on-wolf suspicion.

I do think Inzil has been trying to capitulate on the general suspicions on me toDay - the wolves know the situation and just one innocent lynch will give them great chances of winning the game on the coming Night. Also the way he has done that has been outright twisting the facts (check my posts with real evidence) and I do suspect he tried to out our ranger for the death of us innocents, and when caught, tried to lie to get away with it (check my posts for original quotes showing the difference between what he said and what he claimed he said).

Okay. Needs a moment of thought before voting...


EDIT: mentioning this now... X'd with Inzil.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Right. How do we know Sally didn't say "she" to bluff (or double bluff, or triple bluff) the wolves? Knowing Sally, I don't think we can make any assumptions just because she said "she" instead of "they" or "he". And the fact that this has been the main subject of the day blows my mind. We're not looking for the Ranger, we're looking for the wolves.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Right. How do we know Sally didn't say "she" to bluff (or double bluff, or triple bluff) the wolves?

We don't Shasta. We don't know that.

But it is a thing to be considered as it is the only one thing we have about the ranger.

And as someone (wilwa?) said, it is actually believable that she would give us a hint that way limiting the gender of the ranger thus still protecting her as there were many enough females around...

And why are you suddenly thus concerned Shasta?

If we lynch a wolf toDay we (some of us) live toMorrow, but if we don't, it will be in the hands of our ranger, and only her (him?). So let's make it as safe as possible and try to avoid lynching the ranger - and not force her to come forwards to not lynch her as the revealment of the ranger's identity would be the death of her and thus the end of the game.

And if our only clue is that the ranger is a "she" I think it reasonable to follow that principle toDay.

ToMorrow the situation might be different as there is no reason both the remaining wolves should be males in principle.

edit: x'äd with Inzil again...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sally talked of the ranger as a she. Whatever the status of that claim might be, we should take that into consideration. And Sally didn't give us a name (was wise enough not to).

Now, if the ranger is lynched we lose. It is game over.

If any innocent is lynched, it's likely 'game over'.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I know I'm an innocent myself.

The same is true of me. Therein lies our problem, Nog.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I do think Inzil has been trying to capitulate on the general suspicions on me toDay - the wolves know the situation and just one innocent lynch will give them great chances of winning the game on the coming Night. Also the way he has done that has been outright twisting the facts (check my posts with real evidence) and I do suspect he tried to out our ranger for the death of us innocents, and when caught, tried to lie to get away with it (check my posts for original quotes showing the difference between what he said and what he claimed he said).

I'll accept your explantion about your questioning Sally and inducing her to name her dream. But now you're twisting my words about Wilwa's Ranger idea. Let it be so, then.

x/d with Shasta

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You didn't care to mention that if the wolves know the identity of the ranger it is game over in the morning if we don't lynch a wolf toDay...

Smoking really is a bad habit. Never picked it up myself.
I didn't note that about the importance of lynching a wolf toDay because Wilwa had already said it, in the same post in which she proposed having the Ranger come forward. Doubtless if I had mentioned it, you'd accuse me of parroting the obvious.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you didn't actually say "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way

Fine, I paraphrased. 'Best weapon', 'too valuable'.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you're really reaching /streching out with your other comments. I'll comment on them in a moment... just a cigarette first (bad for your health, never start smoking).

Said the pot to the kettle.

x/d with Wilwa

[Nogrod]

So you're using minutes as arguments and calling for a close read then Inzil? Let's open all of it then.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I'm not 'twisting' your words. That post of Wilwa's came at 5:16 PM, my time, with Sally's response at 5:18. Between then and when Sally revealed her dream at 5:28 (at which time you then voted) you had two additional posts, with no note of x/ posting with Sally.

So on 01.08 I ended my post with:

Originally Posted by me

So it will be wilwa or Izzy for me. Probably wilwa.

I'll think about it for a moment.

And went to have a cigarette and think about the choices.

When I came back I refreshed the page and there was Sally's post on 01.12 that spoke of what she was doing (to which I made a comment) and which also said:

Originally Posted by Sally

If my opinion matters, I'd prefer Izzy. I think Wilwa's probably innocent.

I ended my post with asking her whether she meant Izzy was a wolf as she said she'd prefer Izzy over wilwa (although I strongly disagreed with her about wilwa whom she thought "probably innocent"). That post of mine was sent at 01.21.

Now wilwa's post asking Sally about her having a wolf was posted at 01.16 and Sally answered 01.18 (three minutes before my post was posted). That post of mine 01.21 was a cross post - with both of them.

Then I went back reading what was said and thought about the implications - and I do actually remember reading wilwa's post from 01.22. (so I had first read the few posts that were posted prior to my 01.21 and thought about them, and only then posted my next one which was finally posted at 01.28)

Originally Posted by wilwa

But should you reveal them now then....cause I'm sure Noggy would rather vote for a wolf, and the more people to vote for them the better, just in case, we don't want people coming on and voting before you reveal it, just incase the votes end up getting swayed by the baddies or something....up to you,

Which I thought was straight to the point. And it was only now I kind of knew Sally had a wolf! So after thinking a while I realised the situation was urgent indeed. And I said this on post that was sent on 01.28

Originally Posted by me

If you Sally don't think it wise to reveal your dream then let's just cross our fingers there are enough ordos to vote for the wolf... YesterDay three people didn't vote and with these numbers the wolves could easily outvote us if not everybody voted.

Sorry Sally, but not a Day for nice traps. I can't stay awake for long now - and if I vote the wrong way we might lose the Day and the game as then it takes only one ordo not to vote and we can be busted.

So I was concerned that I might vote the wrong way and decided to wait yet a moment even if it was about 1.30AM and I had an early morning call to see whether Sally would help and stop playing her otherwise nice game with the wolves as the situation was dire enough without the "game" she wished to play. I was thinking about the general situation... the previous Day three people didn't vote, and looking at our numbers there such many non-voters against three wolves would mean that we could be outvoted if just a few of us voted the wrong way (if Sally would reveal only near the DL!). Just look back at how Lottie got lynched! Not with a bang but a whimper.

Therefore I urged her to reveal earlier than later.

And you Inzil should have seen the direness of our situation there.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Fine, I paraphrased. 'Best weapon', 'too valuable'.

No. Sorry. You said first that there are pros and cons but you're "not sure", then you tried to save it by telling that you said "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way".

So first you said "not sure" and then claimed you said you were against it (after I had pointed out it would lead to game over) which you weren't.

Originally Posted by Zil

Smoking really is a bad habit. Never picked it up myself.

Good for you. Never start!