WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

First of all, the *is sad about Boro's death* line just screams wolf.

Oh. I'm sorry. It was intended to scream somebody who likes Boro and is happy to play with him for the first time in a year and doesn't approve of him getting killed after just one day.

Mostly you seemed to be calling for dumping retractables and my/Mira's death. The retractables issue wasn't that helpful, as it's something people didn't really get behind or hate, so it made you seem like you were contributing when you really weren't helping all that much.

Yeah because I suspected Mira. Correct me if I'm wrong but although I also suspected you, I don't think I was ever calling for your death.
And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous.

Don't worry; proper analysis to follow.

I doubt it. You've already decided I'm a wolf.

And I haven't talked to him at all about Downers. We've talked about general game play, but not specifics.

Okay in that case I really wonder what to make of his comment, and I might vote for him because of it.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am sure I had several more important things to say, but as I did not happen to quote them, I apparently forgot them. Okay, one of them was that I don't have any idea about Glirdan, and he does not seem suspicious to me (or suspicious enough to suspect him, if you get my meaning) as he does to many other people. Otherwise... something of Zil's replies made me think that he would be a lot more aggressive if he were a Wolf, on the other hand maybe he just doesn't want to retaliate on me as it would be dangerous for him... but anyway, I am still unsure about him. And yes, one last thing was probably Brinn, whose answer did not convince me about that there were not ulterior motives in not mentioning (nobody said she'd have to look at it herself, but she could have proposed it) looking at the bandwagon she was in (for more details to get a clear idea about what I mean by this look at one of my first posts toDay).

Inzilawolf is usually either way more agressive or way more agreeable as a wolf, depending on the context. In this game he's somewhat defensive and even a little detached, which makes me think he's innocent (and probably an ordo).

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Oh. I'm sorry. It was intended to scream somebody who likes Boro and is happy to play with him for the first time in a year and doesn't approve of him getting killed after just one day.

Okay, this makes sense...but what it does, in my opinion, is scream somebody who wants to act like they would never have Night-killed Boro.

Yeah because I suspected Mira. Correct me if I'm wrong but although I also suspected you, I don't think I was ever calling for your death.
And because people didn't have an opinion about what I said, I wasn't being helpful? I wasn't contributing but tried to look as if I were? Sorry but that's ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous; it's something a wolf would do, because it seriously helps their image while keeping them out of excessive danger.

I doubt it. You've already decided I'm a wolf.

Yeah, I have, but I can't lynch you all on my lonesome - other villagers have to suspect you, too, and they're not going to blindly follow me without any explanation.

EDIT: xed with people

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A list...

'TWAS BRILIG:
Isabellkya – sounds more or less sensible in general, no reason to suspect right now
Agan – not suspicious this far, makes an effort and sounds, how to say it, "balanced" enough... okay, now I am starting to worry as I type this... but no, no, mustn't give in to paranoia. Leaving out of suspicion for now.
Lottie – Shiriff, apparently
Nerwen – no reason to suspect, looks innocent-ish this far
Lommy – there were a few moments when I have been slightly worried, but generally looks like innocent Lommie. I somewhat miss the flip-flopping though...

IN UFFISH THOUGHT HE STOOD:
Glirdan – like I said, I don't find him any suspicious in particular. Not innocent either, but...
Nogrod – Nogrod is hard to work with even if you saw more from him than his smile... what more to say.
Mira – I have to admit I don't have paid very good attention to her this far, at least she didn't do anything eyebrow-raising which I would notice and it made me jump off my chair or something.
Shasta – more or less nothing special
Morsul – hard to say, but some of his reactions were innocent Morsul-ish, so he's in the better half this far
Nienna – not much reading on her, there were a few things she said which looked sensible and genuine. I admit I haven't been focusing well enough on her.
Skip – now this guy could be - I have just such a funny feeling - a quite brilliantly doing newbie Wolf. (I can imagine how happy Agan would be if the two of them were Wolves.) Nevertheless, his generally reasonable behavior and all that make me just see him as a brilliantly doing innocent. This far I don't have any proofs of fishiness in his behavior. I'm sort of thinking that if he was, it would show sooner or later.
Greenie – hasn't posted much, like I said, if I were to point at one person from the Lottie wagon and say it's a Wolf, I'd probably choose her, but still, there's not enough for me to read her.

BEWARE THE JABBERWOCK:
Inzil – after seeing him react and taking Lottie's word, I could give him a pass at least for toDay. Watchful eye, though.
Wintywinty – there's been very little input from him and the very little input was not very positive. (But thanks for replying anyway, that clears things a bit.) I'd like to see more input, however, just to be able to actually make a better judgement.
Sally – I find many of the points which have been brought against her as having quite some grounds, and her self-defense didn't help much to convince me otherwise, rather a bit to the opposite. Questionable, at least.
Brinniel – worrying, she's been under my watchful eye and continues to be so.

Note please that the borders of the cathegories can be somewhat hazy and are very general. However I will likely be picking my vote from among the lowest part toDay.

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Okay in that case I really wonder what to make of his comment, and I might vote for him because of it.

I am not sure if I will be taking such drastic measures right now, especially as I am not used to vote people based on just two or three posts with almost no content (but in this case I wouldn't be probably given much of a choice), nevertheless, it really makes me raise my eyebrows. So, ww - was your comment about Brinn something random, or where did it come from? (From Night talks to simply having to have an excuse, I'll be fine with any answer you provide Just it would be nice to see you a bit more engaged in the dialogue when somebody is actually asking you something or talking about you, that's how we mostly do things around here.)

Otherwise... I am really thinking whether Lottie is not a bit too over the top with suspecting Agan, it's happened to me too a few times (one time I remember in particular when I went punctually through all somebody's posts, pointed wonderful totally 100% proofs of his wolfishness, then we lynched him and he was innocent. And I got lynched the next Day. Of course, Lottie doesn't need to worry about that... anyway, it was supposed to say that zeal needs to cool down also once in a while to see things straight). I don't see anything bad on Agan this far... (if she is a Wolf, like so many times, I will end up kicking myself, but at least it won't be any change from the norm.)

Methinks me make myself a list, then vote and go to sleep. (Though beware of Nogrod, my friends, he returned from cinema with us and he's apparently reading the thread and writing something frumiously long... I'm sort of expecting it to pop up at any moment.)

EDIT: x-ed with one WW, M, L and LG

[wintywinty]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not sure if I will be taking such drastic measures right now, especially as I am not used to vote people based on just two or three posts with almost no content (but in this case I wouldn't be probably given much of a choice), nevertheless, it really makes me raise my eyebrows. So, ww - was your comment about Brinn something random, or where did it come from? (From Night talks to simply having to have an excuse, I'll be fine with any answer you provide Just it would be nice to see you a bit more engaged in the dialogue when somebody is actually asking you something or talking about you, that's how we mostly do things around here.)

I responded to what Agan was saying.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Give me better arguments, please.
Not quite! Outrageously bad phrasing, more like. The outrageously bad had to do with that I was kind of worried about a typical easy Day 1 lynch, but still wanted to vote for Lottie who I suspected. My reasons for voting Lottie, while not all that great, were still substantial by Day 1 standards.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Eurgh. Sorry. My concentration is poor today.

I know this reasoning is outrageously bad, but I'll tell it anyway because it's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of afraid that Lottie will become this typical Day 1 easy lynch (ordo), but then again, she's the only one I have any valid point at all, so

[*highlight]++ Lottie[/highlight*]

Oh, so not outrageously bad reasoning?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lottie

Oh, so not outrageously bad reasoning?

Yeah. I was referring to the reasoning that I'm afraid of a typical Day 1 easy lynch but still vote for you. My actual reasoning for suspecting you wasn't outrageously bad. If I still can't make this understood, I suppose I must blame being a non-native speaker for not being able to explain myself.

Originally Posted by Mira

Unless I missed something, I wouldn't call not liking gut feelings a valid point.

You did miss something. It was that she called every point she had a gut-feeling, also those that were actual reasoned points and not gut-feelings - which struck me as horribly fishy. But really, discussing this is not fruitful as far as I can see.

Now to write some actual substance. I'm sick of talking about myself.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Yeah. I was referring to the reasoning that I'm afraid of a typical Day 1 easy lynch but still vote for you. My actual reasoning for suspecting you wasn't outrageously bad. If I still can't make this understood, I suppose I must blame being a non-native speaker for not being able to explain myself.

No, I get what you mean now.

[wintywinty]

Everyone has now posted after Lottie's claim of being the sherriff, and none have refuted, therefore Lottie was the other sherriff, is innocent, and can definitely be trusted.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nienna

I was pretty confident at that point that Lottie was innocent and was willing to vote for mostly anyone to save her.

Okay, but why were you pretty confident about her?

Originally Posted by winty

and if they do not say they are the next time they post, Lottie's statement must be true, and we can assume that everything she says in the best interest of the villagers.

Yes, I think we can rather safely assume that Lottie has the village's best interests at heart. But she is not the seer. She doesn't know anybody's role and can be as wrong as any of us.

Eurgh I had some other quotes I wanted to comment on but it seems I've lost them. Off to write a list and then vote. I'll probably be suspected for voting out of the blue this time () because I don't have much of an idea until I've looked at the list of villagers and considered each one in turn.

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy and Lottie

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lottie

No, I get what you mean now.

Ok, great. Really, I'm sorry if I've sounded cross, I'm just very very tired and it's very very late and I've been up since rather early morning.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Okay, but why were you pretty confident about her?

I was confident about her for a few reasons. Boro's trust in her was adamant in a way that would be way too risky for wolves. She also started making sense and sounding confident and innocent.

Edit: x-ed

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading.

*opens Notepad and prepares to respond on... everything *

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

You guys make outrageously long posts! (and I seem to be extra-slow toDay)

I have only gotten even with the thread now.

So we have a more or less known innocent crusader running amok? And those suspected are naturally annoyed by it, whatever their role is.

But yes, interesting points as well. Needs to do some thinking...

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Nienna]

I agree with Legate about Lottie and Agan. It seems like an innocent on innocent that I've seen pop up in other games. I'll need to take a closer look at Agan but since she's been one of the more prolific posters it may take awhile.

Edit: x-ed

[Glirdan]

Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.

EDIT: Xed with Greenie

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Gah! Sorry I haven't been on at all today, haven't been home at all since yesterday morning and I'm just getting in now and have only been able to check up on who was killed and I am sad to see Boro gone. I am going to go back and read through things now.

Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wintywinty

I responded to what Agan was saying.

Thanks, already noticed that...

Originally Posted by Nienna

I agree with Legate about Lottie and Agan. It seems like an innocent on innocent that I've seen pop up in other games.

Noting this down in case Agan turns out to be a Wolf...

Originally Posted by Loslote

Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

Come on! Lottie, you may be a known innocent, but you are overdoing it. Not that I am saying you should not use your time as one with proper zeal, as being partial won't accomplish anything, but this of all things is not a reason for suspicion. Innocents are known to do that too, and on the other hand many Wolves know by now that it does not help them. The reaction can be genuine, so what... (okay, Glirdy's sounding maybe a bit more likely to be forced to me, but that's only because I am sure that Agan probably really is sad about not being able to play with Boro longer - which however does not speak neither for her being a Wolf nor for her being an innocent.)

EDIT: x-ed since my last... that's some two posts at the previous page and Inzil here

[wintywinty]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Glirdy's going over the top with acting innocent. First his Day 1 opening post where he enthused about hunting werewolves, now he (like Agan) expresses sorrow over the Night kill. Innocents (in my experience) don't do that. They'll explain why it's a bad thing that someone is gone, but they simply say that is is a bad thing and leave it at that.

When analyzing his posts before you said this, I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Sally

Lottie just lost the game.

Thanks, now I just lost...for the first time in like months!! >_<

Originally Posted by Morsul

Maybe Lottie is the other Sherriff? Boro switched votes to save her?

This is a really valid point, one that I think all should keep in mind while voting. Why else would Boro have switched his vote last minute? To save someone he believed to be innocent or to save someone he knew was innocent? It would also explain his vote post yesterDay:

Originally Posted by Boro

I'm sorry hun, if you're innocent. Duty is forcing me to make this choice.

A cryptic message meant only for an innocent Lottie? But if that is the case, perhaps it is the reason why the Wolves went after him. It is quite possible that one of them picked up on it and thus we end up with this post from Lottie:

*sobs, wails, curls up in a corner and cries until rivers of tears flow and drown out her anguished screams*

This is to say, yeah, I'm the other Shirriff...and I'm seriously ticked.

Personally speaking, I am willing to accept this claim as everything adds up (as in Boro's demand for her to stay and him voting Fea, whom he is close with, instead to save his fellow Shirriff's life).

Lottie brings up a rather interesting point here about Sally:

Originally Posted by Lottie

This is actually agreeing with Shasta's misreading. Just thought I'd point that out. She's not so much reading and forming impressions that other people are confirming; she's bandwaggoning.

After going through Lottie's anaysils of Sally, it does seem as if she (that is to say Sally) just seems to be jumping onto other people's suspicions and piggybacking her way through and not forming any of her own idea's. Hmmmm.....

Originally Posted by Lottie

(Another is Legate, btw. Hmm...who voted him? Oh, right. Glirdy and Sally. Wait a minute! ... )

Correction: I voted Shasta

Which brings me to the end of page 6.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conclusions

Lottie is most definitely innocent.

Sally is really starting to look bad in my eyes. Will form a fully solid opinion once I have thoroughly gone through the other pages and have caught up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FYI, I'm going to be going by page because I don't want this post to take up an entire page. That and I have a terrible attention span so this gives me the chance to step away from the computer momentarily to get my focus back. In other words, I'll be back with another post shortly.

EDIT: Xed since last post....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yes but what was so suspicious about the Lottie-wagon in the first place? You just decided it was fishy but when looking at the Lottie-voters, none of them was suspicious enough to receive your vote. Usually people and their reasons for voting make a bandwagon suspicious, not the other way round.

The push to lynch Lottie looked foul to me because I didn't think she looked evil, and it had all the hallmarks of a wolvish attempt to railroad an innocent. I'm not going through again why I voted the way I did.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

By itself it's not, but I think it's far more likely that the wolves use their retraction to kill an innocent than the other way round. Yeah I know they can be useful to the innocents too, but their benefit for the wolves is more imminent.

That's not a good enough reason to throw away our retractables.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't like that comment. I wasn't planning to do it, but that looks too much like a threat. Yeah yeah I might be totally overestimating how important the wolves consider the retrackies, but still.

A threat? No. But more evidence to point toward your lupinity, my dear, if you start trying to use that as a reason so-and-so is evil.

Originally Posted by Mirandir

I also really disliked Zil's vote for me. If he could explain that too, I'd appreciate it.

Sorry. Can't do it. I'm tired of clubbing that particular dead horse.

x'd with all since # 316

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The push to lynch Lottie looked foul to me because I didn't think she looked evil, and it had all the hallmarks of a wolvish attempt to railroad an innocent. I'm not going through again why I voted the way I did.

Well just when I was hoping to let it be... okay, I'd also like to see Zil just posting things orientated more to the present than to the past, but just this... once again, at least from yesterDay I didn't get the feeling that the bandwaggon would look "foul" to you, you were not at least violently protesting against it. You seemed more like "I don't want to be part of that", but not saying much more, therefore sort of implying "I don't want ot be part of that, but if others are determined to lynch her, I don't mind" (I am not saying you said that, but that's sort of logical conclusion stemming from what you said, the blank space you left), which is inconsistent with the picture you seem to be trying to give, that you actually were against it. That's the difference and that's actually quite well enough phrasing my main point against you. Well, whatever (I don't require you to bother yourself with replying this again, Zil, as this is again just repetition...). I am going to decide about my vote and sleep then.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Legate

And btw, some people yesterDay voiced suspicion about me according to my vote for Lottie, calling it that I jumped on a bandwagon or something, note please that I kept saying that I am going to vote her (and was quite firmly decided to do that) already quite early, and I was the first one to suspect her as far as I am aware (my post where I said it crossposted I think with somebody saying similar suspicion, but that's it). And for that matter, I didn't even realise for quite a long time that Fea's vote was for her as well (as I didn't think about the vote, considering it a "random vote" which, even more likely, is going to be retracted! - cf. Lommy's theory about that Fea cast it only to retract it later. Anyway, I wasn't considering the vote). So my vote was only my vote and that's also why I kept it even with the concern about "easy lynch crowd" (as I said in reply to Nogrod who voiced that concern).

The reasoning for his vote is clear and respectable, but the overall tone seems a little too defensive.

Originally Posted by Lottie

Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? ).

I am really starting to get agitated with this constant biased reasoning. You're making the assumption that I am evil based on my vote for Shasta due to his out of the blue vote for Greenie, who is my quote/unquote "packmate"? Yes, my vote was a throwaway vote yesterDay, but I went through my list of suspicions and voted for the one person who stood out the most, which was Shasta as his vote troubled me.

Originally Posted by Agan

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

This seems a little overly defensive to me...but as it is in response to Lottie who has been hounding everyone with biased reasoning, it could very well be that Agan is simply exasperated.

Originally Posted by Legate

Anyway... in contrary to people wondering about Lottie's suspects, I suggest we really consider them strongly (especially those which they agreed on).

I thought that would have been the obvious thing, seeing as both Boro and Lottie are known innocents. Perhaps you're just stating this so as to steer attention away from yourself?

Originally Posted by Lommy

Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.

I'm not going to keep on defending myself over this, especially since there is only about two hours and twenty minutes left of the Day at the time of writing this and I have been defending myself against Lottie since late in the Day for Day 1.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Unfortunately, when there's this many players around it can be really difficult to focus on everyone, unless you have a whole bunch of time on your hands...which most of us don't.

Amen.


Which brings me to the end of page 7....FINALLY....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quick Conclusion From This Page

Legate is starting to stand out to me. He's making concise arguments, yes, but some of the points he is bringing up (like the one mentioned above) are things that would be fairly obvious to all of us with the exception of our new players. So why point it out?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So at this point,

Sally and Legate are in my suspicions list, which may change with my reading of page 8. Will be back to post that but first....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anybody else worried about Mira and Nerwen? They have been relatively quiet this game, although Mira is a little more worrisome then Nerwen as the latter has been making some great contributions to the game. I'd love to hear more from both, but more so Mira.

EDIT: Xed with numerous amounts of people.
EDIT2: Quoted improperly, fixed it up