WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rikae

the wolves dream of the false seer's role as seer. Why would the wolves be any less able to see the hints, in that case, than the village?

Under that circumstance the advantage to keeping quiet has already been won, due to the fact that the WWs were forced to waste a dream on the false Seer (who must have taken our advice and NOT revealed).

But anyway, I need to leave right away. I'll be back for the final couple of hours.

[Blind Guardian]

Sorry I'm not much help. I'm very confused. What the heck are you talking about!?! Well, I have to go. I'll be back before DL.

Xd with Rikae.

[A Little Green]

Rikae is making a whole lot of sense right now. Other than that, it's 1 AM and I've just started to re-adjust to the Finnish schedule, so I'm not going to mess that up by staying up ridiculously late because of an American deadline. Therefore, I'm going with the only thing I have:

++ Macalaure

I have something on him, one argument that holds water. I have nothing proper on others. I'm too tired to repeat the argument now, but it's in my previous post. Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae who has an avatar scarily similar to mine!

[Kath]

Bedtime for me - as I said it'll be early votes from me!

++BLIND GUARDIAN

There have been a lot of people throwing one liners out. It's Day 1, it's normal. But from most of those with one liners there seems to have been at least something a little useful, at least since some actual discussion started. From Blind Guardian we have two posts about the actual game itself, and neither is constructive:

1: Hello people I am here. But I have to leave. So...MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN!

2: Sorry I'm not much help. I'm very confused. What the heck are you talking about!?! Well, I have to go. I'll be back before DL.

Well something did happen. Lots happened! And if you're confused don't just put that as a random statement - make clear what you're confused about so it can be explained! If it's the false Seer business I'm sure neither Rikae or phantom would mind explaining it again if it means they get to argue more. On the subject of which, it's too early to tell whether that's innocents/guilty parties/bluffs etc, but it will definitely leave points for discussion in later Days.

Having literally just read Greenie's post I don't agree with her view on Mac. I thought he was making the point that if one saw hints in Boro's mentioning of Zeus then one had to see the same in Nerwen's mentioning of Hades, not that he actually thought that Nerwen's mention was suspicious. Because he said (about the Boro one):

It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

Which I thought meant he didn't really think it was a hint. Maybe Mac will clear that up at some point.

And that's it from me for toDay.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Having literally just read Greenie's post I don't agree with her view on Mac. I thought he was making the point that if one saw hints in Boro's mentioning of Zeus then one had to see the same in Nerwen's mentioning of Hades, not that he actually thought that Nerwen's mention was suspicious. Because he said (about the Boro one):
"It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either."
Which I thought meant he didn't really think it was a hint. Maybe Mac will clear that up at some point.

Now there is actually a huge difference in suspecting Zeus and Hera calling each other on the thread (which is not a thing they would need to do as they already know each other) than suspecting that Hades is trying to send a message to Persephone (which would make a lot of sense as the latter really needs to find the former for their love to become true).

Now as suspicions go on Day1 I find it perfectly justified to suspect Nerwen for being Hades and searching for Persephone, but the way Mac states it in a most vague way - praising Wilwa's notice of it, saying it's "definitively deliberate" and not a slip - but that it doesn't make sense raises my eyebrows considerably. What were you trying to say? Downplay Nerwen's possible guilt by bringing the idea to the fore? That would be bold and not smart. But Kath's defence of Mac looks odd as well. Just as Mac manages to say Boro's remarks were deliberate and not slips but hints, she says Mac meant they were not hints... Oh my. There's something fishy in here but it's hard to say what. Too many possibilities of which most don't make sense (I see I'm following Mac's and Greenie's reasoning here )

[Nogrod]

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.

One thing that bothers me is this whole bussiness with Boro and his almighty Zeus stuff. I mean it's possible he tried something but somehow I find the discussion around it even more suspicious. Needs to check.

Also what Greenie said about Mac's remarks is something I had raised an eyebrow as well. Needs to think.

Eonwë's suggestion of the rangers picking turns makes him look more innocent than not as that is clearly an idea thrown in without thinking it through and I don't think a wolf-Eonwë would have tried that kind of bluff opening up a possibly devastating tactics to the innocents. The same goes with Zil's keeping up the idea on the list.

I like the fact that Greenie actually produced a list - even if there's little in it (but green things ).

X'd with Greenie... back in a few moments after re-reading a few things.

[Boromir88]

May we put a freeze on posts for about an hour so I can keep up? Yeesh.

As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.

I'm not exactly understanding the big deal other than I essentially repeated the phantom allied with lovers scenario without knowing I was possibly repeating it.

[Nogrod]

Here's what he said initially.

Originally Posted by Boro

One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.

Then Wilwa goes like this:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Eonwë commented:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

And Wilwa answered:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.

Then it's Rikae:

Originally Posted by Rikae

I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something.

Then Wilwa again:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.

Mac comes to it after some silence on the subject:

Originally Posted by Mac

Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

Eonwë once again is at it:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

Looking back on it, I see what you mean. He mentions "great Zeus" and then "almighty Zeus", so there probably is some hidden meaning.

Greenie mentions Boro in a long list of people confusing her:

Boro - Is confusing me to no end. His great Zeus left me quite baffled, as all the reasons I can think of for him saying that make no sense whatsoever.

Now there are a few things that bother me. Firstly it looks like totally odd as Zeus and Hera actually know each other already and thence there would be no reason for either of them trying to make contact - or anyone else to try and make contact with Zeus for that matter (as there being someone who could really benefit getting Zeus' notice, or how that kind of hinting would help revealing her/his role to him) - and all hinting of one's own personality I think was stirctly banned in the rules (and I can't see the benefit Zeus would have to reveal himself as Zeus, on D1 at least). So a hoaks? Much ado about nothing? Well, secondly it looks like those things wolves love to jump on: when they have no real suspicions themselves - because all they should suspect are innocents - they like to cling on scenarios some others suggest or that stand out in any possible way. Looking at the number of comments where Boro's wordings were deemed suspicious or noteworthy of a raised eyebrow I'd bet there are wolves involved.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.

I second this! There has been some good discussion, but it also seem like there has been some dragged on discussion regarding the lovers.

I don't think the Seers should reveal. Obviously they should give some hints, confuse some wolves, and hopefully help out the town while they are at it.

I think I skipped over the Zeus comments so I'll have to go back and see if there is anything there.

[Lalaith]

Some interesting discussions here - I think the stuff about how to deal with the true/false seers is very helpful. Lots of people have actually been genuinely helpful today, and normally I go with that as a sign of innocence...unfortunately, I think that in this game, everyone, guilties and innocents alike, is trying to make sense of things so that is no longer a helpful guideline on how to vote.

Well, I am, like a few others here, forced to vote early due to European timezones. It's a baffling choice even by first day standards, and all I've got to go on is a hunch that the following vote could throw up something useful:
++BOROMIR

PS, how do I make this go red?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

PS, how do I make this go red?

write the word highlight instead of B to both ends...

[Loslote]

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, anyways. I'd be up for lynching Nerwen, because if Persephone dies, so does Wolf!Hades - and I think Nerwen might be Persephone. If we don't come up with a wolf, that's where my vote will probably go.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Loslote

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory,

Hades already knows who Persephone is so there's no need for Persephone to get into the risky bussiness of hinting her role to Hades. It's the task of Hades to give hints to Persephone who s/he is.

And unlike Rikae seems to think, I think it perfectly probable that the wolf-lovers would try to attract their lovers on Day1 to finalise their love asap and make them so much stronger! To wolf-lovers it is a catastrophic situation as long as their innocent part has not recognized them: it means their death actually if the other one dies. With the lover found they have many more options to win and at least to live. So there is some real pressure and urgency in the wolves trying to find their lovers.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

I think it'd be good for Eonwe to comment on this. I personally am leaning towards him being innocent at this point. However am going to be keeping my eye on him.

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too.

[Rikae]

I thought I'd better go back and see how all the Boro's-Zeus-hints business got stearted, since it all seemed kind of weird, so:


Boro posts, then:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

First, I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Second, Nerwen is right. They are actually all the same. The Lovers and Wolves are essentially on the same team right now. Zeus is really like a 5th wolf at the moment, except he doesn't know who 3 of them are, and has no real say in the Night kill, and counts in the innocent numbers (so maybe more like a cobblerish thing, as long as Hera is still kicking). The other 2 Lovers are potential allies for the wolves if they are united with their wolfy loves.

So, Wilwa just seems confused by Boro's remark, and gives him an explanation of the roles. Then:

Originally Posted by Steve

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

So, Steve seems to interpret Boro's remark as Boro later explained it, and then go on to agree with Wilwa on why it's confusing due to the roles.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.

Anyway. I want more action. I have to go to work later, and I don't want all the good stuff to happen without me.

So now Wilwa seems to be pushing for an explanation a bit, at least for “more action.” Well, stirring the pot is a noble enough enterprise...

Originally Posted by Phantom

Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be? I realize this is a rather free and open game and you are free to place your loyalties anywhere you please, but really...

So, Phantom seems to read Boro as a cursed or lover hinting to the wolves... at least, that's how I read it.

Originally Posted by Rikae

To others: I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something.

The first is what I really thought; the second, as the smiley indicates, is lighthearted and directed at Phantom.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.

So Wilwa seems content...

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

But now Lalaith is reading into it.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?

And Nerwen - I can't tell if she's trying to turn up suspicion on Boro a notch, or just clarifying. Considering the possible hinting she may have done, it's interesting.



And yeah. At this point it all dissolves in a clarification of the roles I'd rather not go through again. It seems, though, that Phantom started things, and Lalaith wound them up again when they were running down. Lalaith seems to be coming into it at a late point wanting clarification, but Phantom seems to have given it some thought before posting what he did, so I'd be interested in hearing what his intentions were.


Also, Loslote, Inzil and Nerwen, I already pointed all that (regarding Steve's loyalties) out. He could be hinting to the wolves because he wants to be turned. He could be hinting to the village because he *doesn't* want to be turned, or wants to be lynched if turned. Either way, he's unlikely to be turned now, and if there is a no-kill and we don't have reason to think it's a ranger save, we can lynch him. He can't actually play as a cobbler, though - goes against his role.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote

[Eönwë]

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Poseidon- God of the Sea – Poseidon is this games Unicorn. When Poseidon dies I will put the names of all of the dead in a hat, including the Unicorn’s name. If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, as I've said, the only way I will be playing with ALL of these roles is if I get enough people signed up to play. If not enough people are playing, I will remove some roles. If we get more then enough, I may add in a Bear or a Cobbler to the game.

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Just so we're clear, there is ONE ordo role as there are 20 players and only 19 roles

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:


Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear. And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos. There are lots of innocents... but only one ordo. Make sense?

[Rikae]

Re: Mac's comment about Nerwen - I thought that perhaps he was trying to confuse Persephone into picking Nerwen, who I doubted (and figured Mac doubted, since he didn't try to get her lynched) was actually Hades. I didn't really think a wolf would have made the comment Nerwen did, as it seemed too risky. But Mac, feel free to correct me - though, if you say I'm wrong, I may end up suspecting you, too.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Under that circumstance the advantage to keeping quiet has already been won, due to the fact that the WWs were forced to waste a dream on the false Seer (who must have taken our advice and NOT revealed).

But anyway, I need to leave right away. I'll be back for the final couple of hours.

Hm, in the case that they dream of xem because of xyr seer-hints? Well, let the false seer hint away, then. I'm sure the wolves will pick up what we want them to pick up, and miss what we want them to miss.