horncall of buckland

[alman]

or, you may prove that it did not talk.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

or, you may prove that it did not talk.

I don't have to– you're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Them's the breaks, kid.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There was no "magic talking horn" involved. In the Scouring of the Shire, when Merry rides off, he says that he's going to blow the horn of Rohan to give the ruffians some "different music," and shortly thereafter, Sam "heard Merry change the note, and up went the Horn-cry of Buckland, shaking the air." If a specific magic horn was required, Merry would not have been able to play it on another horn. It was nothing more than a specific sequence of notes, devised by the folk of Buckland to be a warning of danger, summoning aid. Heaven knows there are plenty of examples in history of specific horn or bugle calls being used for specific purposes — like attack, retreat, go to sleep, etc., or to identify certain inidivuals, as Tolkien mentions Faramir's horn call in The Siege of Minas Tirith.

I actually did write my take on the horn call of Buckland as the introduction to my theme for Merry in my FotR symphony, but it's in one of the movements that currently exists only as a rather mediocre sounding recording of a MIDI instrument rendition. Maybe I should post it on my site, anyway, 'cause it doesn't look as if I'll finish rescoring it in the near future....

[alman]

Inziladun- exellent point! finally, some point of interest that helps clear things up. I dont have my copy on me, so at the moment , I will take your word. I would like to check for quotes, and see if someone is credied with speaking something else after the "ride to gondor" line.
also
Sam "heard Merry change the note, and up went the Horn-cry of Buckland, shaking the air."
Merrys horn does something else besides "shake" the air momments before, like maybe "ring" like this was from two diffent horns.
I took this to mean that he activated the Horncall of buckland by a specific note from his horn.

[alman]

I don't have to– you're the one making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. Them's the breaks, kid
The book says fear fire foes, so the horn went up fear fire foes. how can you argue that?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked.

Still, interesting topic.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked.

Still, interesting topic.

The sword and the purse I'm willing to concede might have actually"talked" (though you can also interpret it as more of a metaphorical/poetic license thing).

This isn't even "decoration". I mean, it isn't implied at all that the horn(s) literally spoke. It's just a horn call that means "Fear, fire, foes, awake, awake!"

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked. Still, interesting topic.

The trolls purse and Turin's black sword seem to be pretty specific clear cases of objects speaking with words - just from how those incidents are described.

• "Troll's purses are mischief, and this one was no exception. 'Ere, oo are you?' it squeaked as it left (Bills) pocket." In this case, a simple set of notes or grunts would have no particular meaning to Bilbo. And the story is written from his perspective. Seems clear Tolkien intended for Bill to have a talking purse.
• Turin actually carried on a (short) conversation with his sword. Turin: "Black sword, will you drink my blood?" Sword: "Gladly, so I can forget the innocent blood YOU made me drink." (paraphrase of quotes).

In the case of the horn call of Buckland, there is never an indication in Tolkien's wording that any of the horns themselves spoke or squeaked words. It's always the horn-CALL (ie, the music) that is associated with the words.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked.

Still, interesting topic.

I quite like that idea, especially since I'm not too fond of the talking objects from a... ahem, canonical point of view, though the purse is fun if you see Bilbo as a stand-alone fairytale.

But yeah, I can totally see how Bilbo, when writing his story, would add certain elements to make it more captivating and remove other elements to make himself look better. Perhaps he just stepped on a twig and was caught by the trolls without much drama but that wouldn't make a good story, would it?

And there were no witnesses around to contradict him. If you accept the premiss that Tolkien was merely the translator of these stories from an ancient past you also have to take into account that, as far as I can remember, no-one was around to hear Turin's sword talking to him, so there's no telling exactly what happened before he took his own life.

And yeah, I'm also quite certain Tolkien didn't intent the Buckland Horn to carry a magically pre-recorded voice message. I don't mind if you read it that way though, alman.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

The book says fear fire foes, so the horn went up fear fire foes. how can you argue that?

What do you mean, how can I argue it? Read the thread! People have explained over and over again that horn-calls often conventionally have words attached to them. A bit earlier you seemed to have accepted that.

You've got nothing, Alman. There's no Talking Horn of Buckland in this story. You just made a mistake, okay?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alman

Inziladun- exellent point! finally, some point of interest that helps clear things up. I dont have my copy on me, so at the moment , I will take your word. I would like to check for quotes, and see if someone is credied with speaking something else after the "ride to gondor" line.
also
Sam "heard Merry change the note, and up went the Horn-cry of Buckland, shaking the air."
Merrys horn does something else besides "shake" the air momments before, like maybe "ring" like this was from two diffent horns.
I took this to mean that he activated the Horncall of buckland by a specific note from his horn.

Alman, not to knock Zil, but this was logically cleared up way before he found that quote. You have clearly become attached to your talking horn theory, to the extent of thinking up creative little details about how this horn supposedly operated –but it's all a house of cards, because you have no evidence that any such horn existed. You've misunderstood the text, that's all. It happens to everyone.

Now, it has happened here before that a member– usually a new member– has brought up an eccentric pet theory, and stubbornly refused to back down no matter what arguments were marshalled against it. This has been known to cause some pretty bad blood and general unpleasantness, so I hope you'll be more sensible.

EDIT:X'd with Alman.