Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Nerwen]

Phantom–

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.

Stop acting like you're some kind of special super-Orc whose actions should be above question. It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.

As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role. However, I'm inclining more and more towards "guilty". (And, in that case, likely Sally's partner.)

If not, you're certainly not helping your side, the way you're acting. Can't you see that?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, we only have one gifted. Therefore you, if innocent, had no business taking that risk. The rest is nothing.

WHAT RISK??!!

The risk I would be killed in place of the Seer? I mean... what?

And don't even say, "Er, the Seer might've counter-revealed" because that would assume that the true Seer is an idiot. I've done several fake reveals in the past, and NEVER has one of them resulted in a counter-reveal. Why? Because I knew the situation and who I was playing with.

I say again- thinking that a throwaway Day 1 comment by a crazy bugger like me would prompt a reactionary reveal by our Seer is to think that your fellow villagers are idiots. You cannot justify your claim by saying, "There've been counters in other games!" This is me, in this game, with these people, at this precise moment. With me, in this village, at that time, there was not going to be a counter-reveal. End of story. I can't believe I'm even having to explain it.

It is entirely normal and logical that I've been asking you about this, and don't think you're going to bluster your way out of it.

It's only "normal and logical" in the sense that you are curious and want to know. Of course we're curious about each other's purposes and roles. But wondering about something doesn't mean that it is in the best interest of your team to wonder about it openly!

Have you still not grasped that your questioning of me was bound to from the very start yield nothing useful whatsoever? I mean- you've still never responded to this point that I've made again and again- the fact that from the start there was no point to you asking these questions. No matter what my role or motivation, talking about this gets us nowhere.

As for what you are– Morgoth only knows! Your performance toDay doesn't make that much sense for an experienced player in any role.

I've only had to give a performance today because YOU have chosen to travel down this pointless road.

If you want to take a look at how you should've done this thing, look at Inzil. Though I'm not completely happy that he even brought it up, he simply asked his questions and moved on, either because he gained what he wanted or because he knew that continuing to talk about it was without purpose. No additional info would be gained, and no help to the village would result.

You said yourself in your first post on the matter that my comment was obviously complete bunk, so tell me why have you insisted on filling up an entire page based upon a complete and total throwaway comment? This is a waste of everyone's time. Seriously, all you people reading this- I'm sorry these minutes of your life have been flushed down the drain.

[the phantom]

Okay, I really would like to sleep now. *yawns*

Nerwen- if you're an Orc then you seriously need to stop. Take a step back and just look at what I said and when I said it. My move was not at all risky and the motivation is obvious if I'm innocent, thus the act says nothing whatsoever as to my guilt/innocence. It is simply a matter of what you believe already.

If you think I'm guilty then you have to make your own explanation for why I did what I did.
If you think I'm innocent then you accept that I was trying to make myself a target, particularly since you know it is something I do regularly in other games. I mean- frankly I'd be suspicious of a non-gifted Phantom that didn't try to get himself night-killed. I LOVE being Wolf-killed as an Ordo.

It's one or the other. Either I'm good or bad. If I may be permitted to say so, if anything the act itself points to good since it's something good-Phantom does often for a known reason, where as I've never done so as a baddie and who knows what my purpose would be? But anyway, all you're managing to do is tick me off. If I don't sleep well tonight then don't be surprised if I'm in all caps insulting mode when I come in tomorrow.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Have you still not grasped that your questioning of me was bound to from the very start yield nothing useful whatsoever? I mean- you've still never responded to this point that I've made again and again- the fact that from the start there was no point to you asking these questions. No matter what my role or motivation, talking about this gets us nowhere.

Phantom, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm trying to hunt Elves. Therefore, following up odd behaviour has a point.

Originally Posted by the phantom

I've only had to give a performance today because YOU have chosen to travel down this pointless road.

Read back over what you've said and what I've said. *sigh* I'm getting very tired of this myself, actually. It's starting to look like you're never going to give me a satisfactory answer, just it-was-all-part-of-my-plan-and-now-you've-spoiled-everything.

Really. If you're a true Orc, try and think about how this all looks to another innocent.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Sally

Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around.

Erm... what? I'm having a serious problem with this post. I'm debating which is more unlikely: an innocent Sally reasoning that way, or an opportunistic Sallyelf stating her reasoning that openly. Sally, my love, why if you're innocent would you refrain from stating your opinion only because not stating it kept you safe from suspicion?

Also, Sally's "Look I was right to vote phantom for rep, we got an elf!" is weird, considering that phantom had nothing to do with that lynch.

Originally Posted by Shasta

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that. On the other hand, I agree with you that Sally continues to look suspicious - maybe even more so than yesterDay. In fact, I find it rather scary how much I agree with you.

Originally Posted by phantom yesterDay

I wish I had six votes and could just slap them on Glirdan or Wilwa and get this over with.

Originally Posted by phantom

Wilwa- Considering the number of posts I have basically no thoughts here. I'm leaning careful Ordo right this second, but I'm not convinced.

What made you change your mind?

Originally Posted by phantom

Also, don't make me a rep if you're inclined to extend innocence to me for not saving Lottie when I easily could have (by voting Sally or voting for Boro before Izzy cast her vote), or for not double-lynching an innocent Boro alongside her as I could have done.

Speaking of that - I'm sorry if you've already explained this and I have missed it, but why didn't you vote yesterDay? As far as I've seen you have just given a lot of reasons why you would have voted had you been an elf.

I don't know what to think of the row between Nerwen and phantom, so I've decided to ignore it for the time being.

A sidenote. Lommy asked me to inform you guys that she will not be around much on the first half of the Day, but should be here normally on the second.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Greenie

I'm not sure about this. It would have been really bold from Lottielf to follow Sallyelf's rep vote so openly. Then again, I'm not sure of whether I've ever played with an evil Lottie before, so I don't know whether she would pull a stunt like that.

Lottie's only been a baddie twice before, I think, but judging from her play then it's something she might do. Doesn't mean that's what happened, of course, but I don't think it would be out of character.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am now around, unfortunately I am afraid that my participation will once again be unluckily diminished due to unforseen RL way of things. I think I won't be around for most of the Day, but I want to show up at least surely closer to the end of the Day (several hours before DL) and re-read at least generally and vote and all. This is just a random occurance, I should be more active later on.

Izzy's death is sort of explainable, she was a Lottie-voter, aside from that, many people seemed to trust her. Lottie's wolvery is not such a big surprise either, and now if you ask me, I think that makes sally rather innocent. I'd like to take a better look at the way the Lottie-voters voted, but generally I think it might be a good indication of the peoples' innocence. It would be interesting to know how many Wolves might've been among the Representatives yesterDay.

As for phantom (tried to avoid that topic as long as I could, but alas! ), with all the weird stuff, I find him more likely to be a mad bold ordinary person than anything else. Like with the yesterDay's stuff, he is bringing very much attention to himself, which would not do too well for a Wolf either. Although, on the other hand, I'd like to look at the timing of his Seer reveal - because now it had occured to me that if he was a Wolf, acting boldly, and then suddenly one of his teammates was about to be lynched, his boldness suddenly meant another possible threat to the WWs' team, so maybe he could try even more ridiculous move to save his skin by revealing as a Seer? If you know what I mean. But I think that would make more sense only if he revealed after it was clear that Lottie goes. Anyway, if it was not, I am more inclined to think him an innocent.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Legate- I'm really really back and forth on you. I found myself head-nodding with you much of the time, and your suspicions and defenses were well-balanced and such, but, BUT- there was one thing I didn't like about you, and that was the way you handled your rep vote. You really seemed to agonize over it in an odd way, as if you didn't want to make the choice or something. In 109 for instance it looks like you're setting up to later let your voting choice be made by others basically, and in 147/152 that is what in fact happens, yes? Basically in the end, your vote was the logical and only choice rather than your choice, and there's something dodgy about that. Am I off here?

Not sure if I get exactly what you mean by "agonizing", but basically, it was like this: I wanted to vote somebody of the people I listed who had already one vote, or then Foley. The problem was that she had no vote, and I did not want to cast a vote for her if nobody else voted her. I was waiting and asking for a response several times, it was late and I was rather tired and at the same time doing still other things before I go to sleep, so once in a while I just checked if somebody nodded to my idea. As nobody did for a long time, then I decided to go with Nerwen, and by that time, it turned out that anyway of the people I wanted to vote she basically remained like that. Yes, it was sort of relieving that the path was completely clearly shown by that, but I said earlier, I would've voted her probably anyway.

Not much time to post now anymore... might be that I will get a chance to pop in still early during the Day (or at least read, if not post, so that I can think of things), but not sure. Sorry for the now limited participation - like I said, will be back before the end of the Day, and then it should be normal again.

EDIT: x-ed since last phantom

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

I can actually follow this reasoning, at least at this stage in the game it could be useful. I might just cast my vote for a person I would like to know more about.



Anyway this Phantom vs. Nerwen business is starting make me feel sick and I have given up on taking proper notes. . . Is this a delusional power struggle or simply a massive case of over analysing each other?

Personally I am of the opinion that if a seer was to reveal his or hers true identity on the basis on a bluff like yesterday, then they deserve to get lynched for being bloody stupid.

Yes the Phantoms actions are often weird and sometimes makes you want to crush your own skull with a sledgehammer, but that is just something you have to get used to. Personally I do not believe half his tales about how cunning he is, but I don't find him overly suspicious and I definitely do not see it as being beneficial to spend the entire day fighting him.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Just a quick point- I do not necessarily support giving voting power today to the people most likely to be innocent, particularly if they are likely innocent because they've already proven themselves with their vote as a rep. I would like to see new blood for the most part, while we have time. It will be more important at the end to hand power to the sure thing. Right now let's try and give others a chance in hopes that a couple of others can prove themselves as well, giving us a better chance of having someone trustworthy left alive at the finish.

I strongly agree with this.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Wilwa's latest comes across as highly defensive.

Right, defensive = evil, sorry, I forgot that as an innocent I should have no desire to remain alive.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

1. He's an Elf. Simple.
2. He's not an Elf, but, in direct contradiction of what she says here, she was confident of being able to manipulate him.
3. He's not an Elf, but she believed him to be the Unknown Orc, who had already decided to go over to the Elves (denies this here and here).

The third one is actually not a possibility, since the Unknown Orc only chose their side this past Night.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Anyway this Phantom vs. Nerwen business is starting make me feel sick and I have given up on taking proper notes. . . Is this a delusional power struggle or simply a massive case of over analysing each other?

Personally I am of the opinion that if a seer was to reveal his or hers true identity on the basis on a bluff like yesterday, then they deserve to get lynched for being bloody stupid.

Yes the Phantoms actions are often weird and sometimes makes you want to crush your own skull with a sledgehammer, but that is just something you have to get used to. Personally I do not believe half his tales about how cunning he is, but I don't find him overly suspicious and I definitely do not see it as being beneficial to spend the entire day fighting him.

I'm going to say a massive case of over analysing each other. And I agree with everything else you said. I really don't want this to take up the rest of the Day, it was a bluff, clearly, and it makes more sense to be an innocent bluff rather than a guilty one.

And I actually think that Lottie turning up guilty does make Sally look a bit better (though not all better, because her attributing Lottie's death to Phantom is weird, since he didn't vote and seemed to actually have been leaning towards a Boro vote (and may have voted him instead, if Izzy hadn't of voted)).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Wilwa

The third one is actually not a possibility, since the Unknown Orc only chose their side this past Night.

I know that. That's why I said "has already decided". Meaning that he could have decided to go over to the wolves on Day One, even before making a formal decision. Lottielf went to some trouble to discount this possibility, so it may be that's exactly what she thought was happening.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

I'm going to say a massive case of over analysing each other. And I agree with everything else you said. I really don't want this to take up the rest of the Day, it was a bluff, clearly, and it makes more sense to be an innocent bluff rather than a guilty one.

Listen, my only intention here is make some kind of sense of the phantom-engima. If I keep poking at him, it's because he keeps thrashing madly when poked at– which naturally makes me wonder. I do not think it "makes more sense as an innocent bluff"– I've said why. I agree it shouldn't be the only thing we talk about, though.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

And I actually think that Lottie turning up guilty does make Sally look a bit better (though not all better, because her attributing Lottie's death to Phantom is weird, since he didn't vote and seemed to actually have been leaning towards a Boro vote (and may have voted him instead, if Izzy hadn't of voted)).

Why do you think it makes her look better, Wilwa? I don't see that at all, myself.

[Thinlómien]

So this far right about both Lottie and Boro. Not bad. Although not so right about Izzy... Well, anyway, now I feel encouraged to play and by the way, I apologise for coming so late and going away soon, but I'll be around more on the latter half of the Day.

And wait... Just spoiled myself: I don't like this. You drop outs are losing the advantage we got by being right yesterDay. Grr... Well no reason then to get too happy or lazy.

So some questions rightaway:
- Why did Izzie die?
- Why did phantom say he's the seer?

I have my theories but I'll comment on these issues once I've read others' posts and commented on them because these questions have no doubt been addressed.

Let's see...

Wilwa seems fishy but possibly in an innocent way

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Lynching is our only tool for getting the Elves, so what's the harm in getting a couple done at once? I don't understand.

Sometimes double-lynching might be smart, but not on Day1 when you have very little information on anything.

Nerwen is acting weird. Phantom's annoying me a bit, yes, but I think I know where he's coming from, or sort of. I can testify his claim about not voting fellows - I think he's always done it this far, which of course makes it improbable yet not impossible that he wouldn't do the same in this game.

Originally Posted by tp

1) If Phantom's an Orc, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
2) If Phantom is the Seer, then his purpose is obvious and the best reaction to it would be not to ask questions about it and let him do his thing.
3) If Phantom is a SoE, I can only assume he's trying to pass himself off as a self-sacrificing Orc, or paving the way for a future reveal. The best reaction would be to watch and wait to see what he does. I might want to question him about it, but given the odds are higher that it's one of the first two options the overall best bet would be to keep my mouth shut.

Well, I'd say 1 is the most probable option, then 3 and then 2. It's very unlikely the real seer would reveal that way, but we cannot be certain, and at this point it's happily more the SoEs' problem than ours (if he really was the seer and died either by them or us, I have no doubt we would find satisfactory clues as for the identity of his dreem subjects).

Btw although I think Nerwen is the one who is "wrong" in this issue I think you phantom are being unnecessarily haughty - if you're not the seer there is always the risk of the seer making a counter-reveal for one reason or another and however small the risk might be it still exists. Nerwen has a point there.

Originally Posted by phantom

Some of you who haven't done so- any chance you could follow the example of Rune and Greenie and make a list in which you name every villager and give a short blurb about them, or at the very least place them into categories of suspicion?

Just so that it's be easier for you and (the other?) SoEs to find the seer? Hey come on.

As for Izzie's death, weel, I'd love to check her posts for possible suspected seer dreams, but I don't have time for that now.

All in all, I'm sorry I'm not being too helpful now, but my brain is too tired to figure out who's guilty atm. I'll just vote my rep and be back tomorrow (it's 1.50 AM here).


edit: double x-ed with Legate

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

Again: why did you claim to be the Seer?

As for the seer bit, I would have done the same thing. In fact I did, last game, in order to save Skip. But I usually wouldn't do that if I didn't think the seer was in danger, or if I didn't have a darn good reason otherwise. So I don't know.

I suspect Phantom's just being very tricksy again. I do want to know why he didn't vote though, which I've likely missed because I'm still not totally awake. >.<

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Which had nothing to do with Phantom - I don't know why you're attributing it to him. Every single post you've made today strikes me as wolvish, dear Sally.

I've only made the one post toDay, pet. Remember, the post where I said "I was ill but we got a wolf, yay!"? That one? How is that suspicious exactly?

Originally Posted by Shasticle

Also, does anyone else notice that any time someone questions Phantom too much, he ends up thinking they're a baddie? Nerwen has made several good points about your play so far, Phantom, and if I didn't have work in five hours I'd go through and point them out (again). That's something for tomorrow, I guess.

But in answer to your intimation that I would rather Sally have been lynched yesterday than Lottie - Yes, I would have. But Lottie being evil doesn't exonerate Sally in the slightest - in fact I'm more suspicious of her now than I was - so I don't see why you brought it up.

Babe, you're not making sense. I understand your piece about Phantom, and agree with it actually, though that's just sort of who he is, but to say that you'd rather I was lynched than Lottie? You would have learned nothing. Well, you would have, in that an innocent would have been lynched and, when Lottie did get lynched and was proven guilty, you would have had a lot to look at in regards to the first Day. But saying "I wish we hadn't Fenris'd someone" is never okay to say. Never. Sure, say "We should lynch Sally and see what happens and what we can learn with both of them dead" but you can't say you'd rather I was dead than a proven elf. I can't understand why you would say this unless you were one too. Sorry, kid, but it's true.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Izzy's death is sort of explainable, she was a Lottie-voter, aside from that, many people seemed to trust her. Lottie's wolvery is not such a big surprise either, and now if you ask me, I think that makes sally rather innocent. I'd like to take a better look at the way the Lottie-voters voted, but generally I think it might be a good indication of the peoples' innocence. It would be interesting to know how many Wolves might've been among the Representatives yesterDay.

Finally. Someone who gets it. I plan to look long and hard at who voted (both for representatives and the lynch itself) whom and why.


Basically....Shasta looks bad to me, based on that post, and Legate sees sense on many a level, which unfortunately doesn't mean he's innocent. Nerwen looks rightfully innocently frustrated with Phantom, so I won't be wanting to lynch her toDay, but I don't want her as a representative either, as I don't want Phantom dead....yet, at least.



Off to peruse page ten now.

[Eönwë]

So phantom, why didn't you vote?

And saying "in order to allow Lottie to be lynched" is not a satisfactory answer. If you are an Orc and truly believed her to be an Elf, it would've made sense to vote her as well (though it might have looked as though you were an Elf just attaching yourself to her death which was already happening, but if you're an Orc then that shouldn't matter because it's more important to lynch Elves than save yourself from possible future accusations). And the other option would be to vote someone else, which would either be a throwaway vote (Which would look suspicious), or could take someone else down too (Which could also look suspicious, as though you want to take an innocent down as well as one of your fellows, if you were an Elf.)

Anyway, my point is that whatever you would've voted would've most likely been criticised or at least questioned in some way, but not voting at all is even worse, because it makes it look as if you don't want to do anything objectionable. It even looks- dare I say it- "careful".

So why choose to vote for no-one when as an innocent Orc it would've been better to vote for who you found suspicious (or at least attempt to get someone lynched)?


I actually suspect that if the phantom does have a special role, he's the Undecided Orc who decided to leave his record clean yesterDay so that he could choose without implications in the Night. And anyway, he's been trying to prove that he's innocent since the beginning, which would be beneficial to have the rest of us believe whatever role he chose to take.


Hm... this musing seems to have ended up a bit longer than expected, but still, "I thought it prudent to leave the lynch the way it was" is no excuse to just purposefully not commit yourself to a vote when you were chosen as a carrier of votes.


edit: x-ed with Moddess Feanorc. What's happening in this game?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I'd like to look at the timing of his Seer reveal - because now it had occured to me that if he was a Wolf, acting boldly, and then suddenly one of his teammates was about to be lynched, his boldness suddenly meant another possible threat to the WWs' team, so maybe he could try even more ridiculous move to save his skin by revealing as a Seer? If you know what I mean. But I think that would make more sense only if he revealed after it was clear that Lottie goes.

This is a very good point. He posted that after he knew that Lottie was lynched. And knowing the phantom, a stunt like that wouldn't be too unlikely if he felt in danger.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Also I should probably mention that even though I would love to receive a mandate from the masses, today is not a good day for me to be a representative. . . Unless you want a representative who show up drunk and makes a more or less random vote.

That seems about right.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Well the way Lottielf voted for Phantom so early in the Day it almost seems like something she would have talked to the other SoE about during the Night, so for another SoE to also do it just seems strange. Also if Sally is an elf and voted like that, I don't know why her fellow elf would come on and vote the same right after, they must have known that would draw way too much attention to themselves, and I don't see them doing that. Like I said though, it doesn't make me feel fantastic about Sally, but I would still be a little surprised if she turned out to be an Elf.

They may have thought it would be a great way to deflect suspicion. It's so obviously suspicious that maybe the hoped that no-one would vote for them. Of course, if that was their plan, it failed miserably, but with one dying it would make the other seem less suspicious, which is why I think we definitely shouldn't cross Sally off the "Suspicious" list.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

phantom: Just a question. What if your initial premise is wrong? I'm somehow getting more and more worried it might be... I mean you have a decent quess there but the world might work differently.

Oh, I'm well aware that it may be different, but it may prove helpful in the end supposing that I am looked to for information when it comes killing-time during the night, if you take my meaning.

Originally Posted by Steve

So phantom, why didn't you vote?

Already explained that one, m'lad. I didn't think Lottie was a bad choice, and certainly not to the point where I'd lynch Sally over her, never mind my promise not to vote for either of them as they had voted me as their Rep. And then Boro- I was definitely not confident enough to risk a double-innocent lynch.

In the end, it's the result that counts anyway, and a SoE died while an Orc did not (yes, I realize Shasta and others will absolutely hate me for saying that as if I'm tooting my own horn).

And pleeeeeeeeeeease no one else drop out!!! After Boro and Glirdan falling by the wayside we now have one less day to find the SoE.