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#1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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Quote:
You posted that you don't think Sauron was ever killed, and seem to have a problem with using this, or similar terms. OK but I don't think we need to worry about other factors that might be raised, in order to use these terms that is: when Sauron's body and spirit are separated, I think we can say he has been slain. Tolkien doesn't feel the need for quotation marks, for example: 'Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.' (JRRT, letter 131) As Pitchwife also noted, Sauron was physical again in the Third Age. He could rebuild his body because the Ring existed. Letter 200 (begins) 'I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.' There's other text regarding the body of Sauron in the Third Age, but letter 200 is a good example (the full letter if one has Letters of JRRT). |
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#2 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,493
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Perhaps so. However, even from your words, Huan didn't really kill Sauron, as Eonwe said in the beginning of the thread. Vanquished=defeated, concoured; not necessarily slain. He lost his power and his body when he was defeated, but was he really killed by Huan?
Moreover, it says in The Sil that the only reason why Sauron left his body in Huan's possession is because he couldn't escape otherwise, and he left it on free will - Huan didn't really force him to do that. Plus, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy. Yes, I know that when describing it I said "killed" and not "concoured". Sauron's goal was to kill Huan: he thought he would be able to do the prophecy. Not only defeat, but kill. This probably makes no sense whatsoever, but these are the best arguments I can present for the case at the moment.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#3 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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A draft text notes: 'Then lest he be forced from the body unwillingly, which is a dire pain to such spirits, he yielded himself. And Luthien and Huan wrested from him the keys of the tower,...' Lost Road pg. 300 |
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#4 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Galadriel55, I believe Galin's point was not that Huan killed Sauron, but that Sauron could be killed, and was. Or, at least, his spirit could be separated from his body, which I think is a fairly good working definition of being "killed".
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 11-13-2010 at 03:35 AM. Reason: clarification; added comment. |
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#5 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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By the way, when I saw this title, I thought it was a new thread, and the first thing that came into my head was: !!!! They've un-banned "Intellectual Threads" Mansun!
Sure liked his "vs" topics, that one. ![]()
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#6 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,493
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Well, it is possible that Huan could have killed Sauron; after all, he wasn't a regular dog. However, again, I'm not really sure if Sauron was indeed killed when hir Fea left his body. In the beginning of The Sil it says that the ainurs' bodies are like clothing, and their physical form could easily be changed or discarded. No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?
On the other hand, though, Gandalf says that he went through death when his Fea left his body and then was sent back in orded to finish his mission. However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Quote:
Cf. your own point here: Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]() Seriously: for one thing, though nobody is arguing the "death" of one of the Ainur is exactly like the death of a mortal, talking about them being "killed" or "slain" or "dying", is, at least, an acceptable shorthand– and one that's apparently good enough for the author. Finally, look, where exactly are you going with this, anyway? Gothmog was a Maia too, so any argument you make about Sauron being unkillable must also apply to him.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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