Gothmog vs. Sauron

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ainur are not the same as elves, though, in this respect. It is true that the Fea of elves never dies, but they are "dead" to the outside world when they go to the Halls of Mandos. Maiar don't need to have a physical form, but they become people or animals (like Almesiva Moonshadow said), so that to become closer with Arda and Eruhini. They can exist in Arda without a body, though. An elve's fea would not be able to do that. When it is separated fro the body, it goes straight to Mandos.

As noted by Pitchwife (and me in another recent thread) the Elven fea can refuse the summons of Mandos and 'haunt' Middle-earth.

You posted that you don't think Sauron was ever killed, and seem to have a problem with using this, or similar terms. OK but I don't think we need to worry about other factors that might be raised, in order to use these terms that is: when Sauron's body and spirit are separated, I think we can say he has been slain. Tolkien doesn't feel the need for quotation marks, for example: 'Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.' (JRRT, letter 131)

As Pitchwife also noted, Sauron was physical again in the Third Age. He could rebuild his body because the Ring existed. Letter 200 (begins) 'I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.'

There's other text regarding the body of Sauron in the Third Age, but letter 200 is a good example (the full letter if one has Letters of JRRT).

[Galadriel55]

Perhaps so. However, even from your words, Huan didn't really kill Sauron, as Eonwe said in the beginning of the thread. Vanquished=defeated, concoured; not necessarily slain. He lost his power and his body when he was defeated, but was he really killed by Huan?
Moreover, it says in The Sil that the only reason why Sauron left his body in Huan's possession is because he couldn't escape otherwise, and he left it on free will - Huan didn't really force him to do that.
Plus, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy. Yes, I know that when describing it I said "killed" and not "concoured". Sauron's goal was to kill Huan: he thought he would be able to do the prophecy. Not only defeat, but kill.

This probably makes no sense whatsoever, but these are the best arguments I can present for the case at the moment.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps so. However, even from your words, Huan didn't really kill Sauron, as Eonwe said in the beginning of the thread. Vanquished=defeated, concoured; not necessarily slain. He lost his power and his body when he was defeated, but was he really killed by Huan?

My first response above was to the section I quoted, which included that you didn't think Sauron was 'ever killed'. I didn't say Huan slew Sauron -- the Silmarillion text (1977 text anyway) says Huan released Sauron after Sauron yielded to Luthien.

Moreover, it says in The Sil that the only reason why Sauron left his body in Huan's possession is because he couldn't escape otherwise, and he left it on free will - Huan didn't really force him to do that.

The tale reads 'Ere his foul spirit left its dark house' Luthien came to Sauron. Or from the Grey Annals; 'Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol Sirion, ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu-Fuin.'

A draft text notes: 'Then lest he be forced from the body unwillingly, which is a dire pain to such spirits, he yielded himself. And Luthien and Huan wrested from him the keys of the tower,...' Lost Road pg. 300

[Nerwen]

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Galadriel55, I believe Galin's point was not that Huan killed Sauron, but that Sauron could be killed, and was. Or, at least, his spirit could be separated from his body, which I think is a fairly good working definition of being "killed".

[Nerwen]

By the way, when I saw this title, I thought it was a new thread, and the first thing that came into my head was: !!!! They've un-banned "Intellectual Threads" Mansun!

Sure liked his "vs" topics, that one.

[Galadriel55]

Well, it is possible that Huan could have killed Sauron; after all, he wasn't a regular dog. However, again, I'm not really sure if Sauron was indeed killed when hir Fea left his body. In the beginning of The Sil it says that the ainurs' bodies are like clothing, and their physical form could easily be changed or discarded. No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?
On the other hand, though, Gandalf says that he went through death when his Fea left his body and then was sent back in orded to finish his mission. However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?

Well, there are many indications that there's quite a distinction between an Ainu voluntarily discarding a temporary form, and one who is habitually incarnate having to abandon his body because it's been damaged. The latter does seem enough like what we call "death" as to make little practical difference in the short term (which is what this thread is concerned with).

Cf. your own point here:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.

See? Even Maiar themselves can't be bothered with that kind of hair-splitting.

Seriously: for one thing, though nobody is arguing the "death" of one of the Ainur is exactly like the death of a mortal, talking about them being "killed" or "slain" or "dying", is, at least, an acceptable shorthand– and one that's apparently good enough for the author.

Finally, look, where exactly are you going with this, anyway? Gothmog was a Maia too, so any argument you make about Sauron being unkillable must also apply to him.