Gothmog vs. Sauron

[Galin]

Noting a statement concerning Maiar-orcs:

'In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: (...) The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit state (even demon form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. (...)'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Text VIII

In Osanwe-kenta (probably dates 1959-60), Pengolodh notes that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of incarnation: '... especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar).' Pengolodh also cites the opinion that '... if a spirit (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate wihout the hroa.'

The note goes on to describe the things that are 'binding', mentions Melian, and notes that Melkor alone among the Great became at last bound to a bodily form. And...

'So it was with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken away from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed [Pengolodh here evidentally refers to Sauron in particular...'

JRRT, Osanwe-kenta, Vinyar Tengwar 39

If I recall correctly, after more than 400 years of the Sun the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron takes place, and no matter what the magic art of shape-shifting entails in detail (for myself, I prefer not to cut this particular ball open too much to investigate its bounce), it's said that Sauron: '... could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.' Noting too that Sauron yielded to Luthien as well.

As far as this hair needs to be split anyway, Sauron can be killed; and perhaps at the point in the battle with Huan Sauron's 'clothes' have become too much like an incarnate body, while by comparison Ulmo's form is more like raiment (noting again that only Melkor of the Great became bound to a physical body).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly

You are right that Sauron could be killed, but still I stand by the point that he wasn't killed by Huan. ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

But we know Sauron was (physically) killed on other occasions– what, in particular, makes you think he'd survive having his throat torn out (or whatever) this time? Or that Huan wouldn't be able to inflict sufficient bodily harm on him? I mean, you say you "personally" think so, but why?

Also–

Lúthien came to him and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth...

She's not talking about him voluntarily leaving his body there, is she?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You are right that Sauron could be killed, but still I stand by the point that he wasn't killed by Huan. ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

For clarity, I am not and have not been arguing that Huan killed Sauron

In fact, although in Osanwe-kenta Tolkien notes that the first bodily destruction of Sauron is recorded in the Lay of Leithian, I don't see this as necessarily the interpretation with respect to the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron (unless I've missed something here). So far anyway, I read the various versions as relating that Sauron, by yielding to Luthien, avoided being utterly de-bodied here.

That is, although too much wedded to his form, he was not killed by Huan, but would have been unless he yielded to Luthien. Again, that doesn't seem to mix easily with JRRT's statement in Osanwe-kenta, I realize, but that said, Sauron did not, it seems to me, retreat to his master as a 'ghost' (Luthien's warning), but fled in some form in any case, after avoiding death.

In other words, 'Ere his foul spirit left its dark house' (thus, before his spirit was separated from his body) Luthien challenged him, and Sauron relented, saving himself from this. In the actual Lay itself (written much earlier than Osanwe-kenta) Luthien tells Thu that he will die...

'unless the keys thou render me
of thy black fortress, and the spell
that bindeth stone to stone thou tell,
and speak the words of opening.'

Granted here, when Thu flees there is a 'wolvish corpse' noted, but Thu yet flies to Taur-na-Fuin in another form: '... a new throne [] and darker stronghold there to build.'

To me, he still seems to have escaped death.


What think you Barrow-downers?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

The use of capital letters here might imply that I am, or have ever been, arguing that Huan killed Sauron.

For clarity then, I have not and am not

In fact, although in Osanwe-kenta Tolkien notes that the first bodily-destruction of Sauron is recorded in the Lay of Leithian, I don't see this as necessarily the interpretation with respect to the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron (unless I've missed something here). So far anyway, I read the various versions as relating that Sauron, by yielding to Luthien, avoided being utterly de-bodied here.

(...)

To me, he still seems to have escaped death.

What think you Barrow-downers?

I agree; in case my last post wasn't clear, I'm arguing not that Sauron was killed by Huan (in the Silmarillion version, at least, it seems pretty clear that he wasn't), only that it was possible. This whole rather tangled dispute has been about the claim by the original poster that

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was)

[Galadriel55]

Well, if you want to return to the original post, Huan was not a regular dog. Some other hound wouldn't be able to kill him. Moreover, as I've said before, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, if you want to return to the original post, Huan was not a regular dog. Some other hound wouldn't be able to kill him. Moreover, as I've said before, it is said that Huan must battle the mightiest of all the wolves to ever exist before he would be killed. Sauron, taking the shape of a very large wolf but not being the mightiest, could not possibly defeat Huan. So even if in reality Huan may be weaker than Sauron, in this fight Sauron didn't have a chance of winning, because of the prophecy.

Ah... but that depends on how you think prophecies work. The one about Huan, as quoted in the 1977 Silmarillion, is ambiguous:

He too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.

Does this convey total invulnerability upon Huan, even from those stronger than he, or does it just mean that only the mightiest wolf of all will be powerful enough to kill him? Considering it's meant to be a curse, I'd go for the second version. (You do realise that your interpretation would allow even a Chihuahua-sized Huan to win all the time just as easily as the huge beast he actually was? )

So: I'd say Huan beat Wolf-Sauron simply because he was stronger, and/or more skilled at physical combat. However, by the same token it's indeed true that Huan (whatever he was, exactly) wasn't "just a dog" by any means, so the fact that he defeated Sauron isn't really such a huge point against the latter.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You do realise that your interpretation would allow even a Chihuahua-sized Huan to win all the time just as easily as the huge beast he actually was?

However, Huan wasn't that small and weak, and that is perhaps one of the reasons for such a prophecy and such a fate.

[/QUOTE]So: I'd say Huan beat Wolf-Sauron simply because he was stronger, and/or more skilled at physical combat. However, by the same token it's indeed true that Huan (whatever he was, exactly) wasn't "just a dog" by any means, so the fact that he defeated Sauron isn't really such a huge point against the latter.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you got one of my points at last. I hope we all agree that Sauron COULD NOT be killed by any dog and that in whatever way Huan was not a normal dog, so he could kill him. The rest doesn't really matter that much if you consider the original question. We also have to remember that "great elven warriors" are exactly that - great. Even in the third age the Noldor remain great - for example, Galadriel can read Sauron's thoughts when he thinks of elves, but he doesn't know hers (please let's not discuss if it was really true, ect. That's beside the point). And Huan was the Hound of Valar, and you could hear Orome's horn in his bark; so in a way Huan represents the Valar, which makes him very powerful.