Gothmog vs. Sauron

[Nerwen]

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Galadriel55, I believe Galin's point was not that Huan killed Sauron, but that Sauron could be killed, and was. Or, at least, his spirit could be separated from his body, which I think is a fairly good working definition of being "killed".

[Nerwen]

By the way, when I saw this title, I thought it was a new thread, and the first thing that came into my head was: !!!! They've un-banned "Intellectual Threads" Mansun!

Sure liked his "vs" topics, that one.

[Galadriel55]

Well, it is possible that Huan could have killed Sauron; after all, he wasn't a regular dog. However, again, I'm not really sure if Sauron was indeed killed when hir Fea left his body. In the beginning of The Sil it says that the ainurs' bodies are like clothing, and their physical form could easily be changed or discarded. No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?
On the other hand, though, Gandalf says that he went through death when his Fea left his body and then was sent back in orded to finish his mission. However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No one would say (I hope) that Ulmo died when he discarded his physical appearance the one or two times that he took one. Why do we all assume that Sauron died?

Well, there are many indications that there's quite a distinction between an Ainu voluntarily discarding a temporary form, and one who is habitually incarnate having to abandon his body because it's been damaged. The latter does seem enough like what we call "death" as to make little practical difference in the short term (which is what this thread is concerned with).

Cf. your own point here:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, Gandalf was in a hurry every time he talked about that, and most of the time he talked to those who do not now too much about the ways of Maiar, Mandos, etc. Maybe he was just putting it in a term that would be familiar to his listeners.

See? Even Maiar themselves can't be bothered with that kind of hair-splitting.

Seriously: for one thing, though nobody is arguing the "death" of one of the Ainur is exactly like the death of a mortal, talking about them being "killed" or "slain" or "dying", is, at least, an acceptable shorthand– and one that's apparently good enough for the author.

Finally, look, where exactly are you going with this, anyway? Gothmog was a Maia too, so any argument you make about Sauron being unkillable must also apply to him.

[Galin]

Noting a statement concerning Maiar-orcs:

'In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: (...) The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit state (even demon form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. (...)'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Text VIII

In Osanwe-kenta (probably dates 1959-60), Pengolodh notes that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of incarnation: '... especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar).' Pengolodh also cites the opinion that '... if a spirit (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate wihout the hroa.'

The note goes on to describe the things that are 'binding', mentions Melian, and notes that Melkor alone among the Great became at last bound to a bodily form. And...

'So it was with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken away from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed [Pengolodh here evidentally refers to Sauron in particular...'

JRRT, Osanwe-kenta, Vinyar Tengwar 39

If I recall correctly, after more than 400 years of the Sun the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron takes place, and no matter what the magic art of shape-shifting entails in detail (for myself, I prefer not to cut this particular ball open too much to investigate its bounce), it's said that Sauron: '... could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.' Noting too that Sauron yielded to Luthien as well.

As far as this hair needs to be split anyway, Sauron can be killed; and perhaps at the point in the battle with Huan Sauron's 'clothes' have become too much like an incarnate body, while by comparison Ulmo's form is more like raiment (noting again that only Melkor of the Great became bound to a physical body).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly

You are right that Sauron could be killed, but still I stand by the point that he wasn't killed by Huan. ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ELUDE does not mean SURVIVE or LIVE. Yes Sauron wanted to get away, but personally, I think that if he wouldn't have left his body he wouldn't die either. He'd just be controlled by Huan.

But we know Sauron was (physically) killed on other occasions– what, in particular, makes you think he'd survive having his throat torn out (or whatever) this time? Or that Huan wouldn't be able to inflict sufficient bodily harm on him? I mean, you say you "personally" think so, but why?

Also–

Lúthien came to him and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth...

She's not talking about him voluntarily leaving his body there, is she?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

The use of capital letters here might imply that I am, or have ever been, arguing that Huan killed Sauron.

For clarity then, I have not and am not

In fact, although in Osanwe-kenta Tolkien notes that the first bodily-destruction of Sauron is recorded in the Lay of Leithian, I don't see this as necessarily the interpretation with respect to the battle of Huan and Wolf-sauron (unless I've missed something here). So far anyway, I read the various versions as relating that Sauron, by yielding to Luthien, avoided being utterly de-bodied here.

(...)

To me, he still seems to have escaped death.

What think you Barrow-downers?

I agree; in case my last post wasn't clear, I'm arguing not that Sauron was killed by Huan (in the Silmarillion version, at least, it seems pretty clear that he wasn't), only that it was possible. This whole rather tangled dispute has been about the claim by the original poster that

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Sauron could have been killed by a dog (however great he was)