WW: LXXXV - The Lost Philosophers of Maiar

[skip spence]

Lunch-time and a quick pop-in.

Originally Posted by Agan

My non-Downer friend (who doesn't know my role) is lying on the floor next to my chair and trying to distract me: "Macalaure is a wolf. I know he is. I must be the seer. I hope the wolves don't come and eat me tonight. Do you suspect Macalaure? Let's lynch Macalaure! Don't write that!"

I'm beginning to think your lovely non-downer friend might have a point.

Had a quick look at Mac's long analysis-post and I'm rather disturbed that he seems to regard Nessa as an innocent. Yes she might well be, but frankly, I fail to see how voting or suspecting Nessa (an unknown and ie possible baddie) objectively is much worse than voting and suspecting a now proven innocent. Huh, Mac?

When I get back I should like to have a proper look at Mac, Rikae and Agan. Also Shasta and Cailin, I suppose. Mostly because these people never really have worried me before.

It would be nice to get a summary of the voting record of the people left alive too.

Edit: Guess that Boro as the cobbler makes sense. If he is, do we let him get away with that?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Skip

It would be nice to get a summary of the voting record of the people left alive too.

I can provide that at some point, right now I'm working on gathering all the votes from all the Days with the reasoning behind them included. I was always of the opinion that just the names and numbers don't tell us much. But since it proved a bigger project than I anticipated, I'm going to post it one Day at a time. I'll post comments of my own only until I have the whole picture. So here we go:

Day 1 votes (known innocents in italics)

Cailín – Agan
(”Because I know she can take it and I owe her one anyway.”)

Kit – Pitch
(”I feel, though he's said a lot trying to look helpful, but hasn't really helped anything at all.”)

Legate – Lottie
(”Now if we are speaking of Cobbler hints, THIS might be one.” and ”This was just a very well possibly Wolfy post. I mean, the sort of quiet raising of suspicion, putting in a few names and then saying you don't actually suspect them, but if any people follow your opinion, then you join the bandwaggon and point at that 'I have been saying that I suspect them all along'.”)

Rikae – Wilwa
(”Wilwa's seeming desire to admonish the village (yes, based on something I said, but I didn't say much) and wash her hands of the Pitch-wagon both strike me as evil attempts at being involved and positioning oneself in an innocentish way without actually having to go out on a limb.”)

Inzil – Nessa
(”Nessa seems off; the "oddsmaking" post just looks like trying to seem helpful.”)

Shasta – Lottie 2
(”Lottie always suspects someone. It bothers me that she apparently doesn't right now.”)

Boro – Inzil
(”They [Eomer and myself] usually aren't the chatty posters, but still get involved and in the action early on. Same can be said about Inzil who I realized has as many posts as me, but the only thing I can recall about him is the dream and eating his pillow...”)

Sally – Pitch 2
(”For shiftiness and wanting (on my part) to not just vote for one of the people who is attacking me.”)

Ozban – Nessa 2
(”As the air grows gravely stinky
this may seem like out of blue
I ask advice of my pinky:
'cause I know not half of you
"I shall not vote Agan kinky."
and the end is nearly due.”)

Wilwa – Sally
(Cobbler hint; ”With that said, I think Sally is at the top of my list. With the incorrect representation of what Skip said about the Seer, and the fact that she seems to be a bit all over the place with dislikes and likes, either by going from liking someone to not, or some are just a "yay, this person is shiny" or "no, I don't like this", without really giving any reasons. I know all that is a bit superficial, and on it's own I wouldn't likely suspect her, but that isn't all I have against her....so yeah, I'm really suspecting her right now.”)

Pitch – Nessa 3
(”For mathematical pseudo-helpfulness and attempted Seer-outing.”)

Kath – Inzil 2
(”faintly shoddy reasoning against Pitch compared to everyone else and he came to it late.”)

Valier – Inzil 3
(”Just don't like his Nessa vote because of her math, I didn't find her overly suspicious and I just get this itching feeling that he may well be a baddie”)

Nessa – Rikae
(”My hint was that if she knows something we don't, it's suspicious. After all, the wolves all know something we don't: who to kill. She got quite jumpy after being called out, and hastily backtracked, which seems really strange to me, not to mention how much discussion and sidetracking has resulted from her first post about Pitch. Perfect opportunity for a wolf.”)

Eomer – Nessa 4
(”looks a bit funny to me”)

Skip – Sally 2
(”Just got this icky feeling about her misrepresenting my words.”)

Elra – Pitch 3
(”Pitch seems shady, for reasons others have mentioned. If it was just "Hey, wait, why me?", then I wouldn't be so worried, but it's been "Hey, wait, why me? Also, here's a lot of words to make me seem like I'm contributing.””)

Lottie – Sally 3
(”Sally still worries me”, ”Sorry, dear, but you're the best hunch I've got.”)

Lommy – Sally 4
(”gives me a little fishy vibes. Something off with that long post of hers, but can't really pinpoint it.”)

Agan – Sally 5
(”No. It won't work - unless the Cobbler says it in the thread. So if the wolves get sally's name tonight, they can go back and realise "Hey, she said this!" I really really really don't like this point.”)

So Sally 5, Nessa 4, Pitch 3, Inzil 3, Lottie 2, Rikae 1, Wilwa 1, Agan 1.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, what do we have here.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Obviously you want the lynched-distraction to be a wolf. And are you seriously suggesting we just let Nessa walk away now? Time to get yourself new glasses because the wolves are standing right in front of you, but you're not seeing them. The wolves are just taunting and bluffing us at this point, but you're too focused on me. Now I know I haven't been playing up to my standards, but you'll only have yourself to blame when this is over.

I know I haven't been much use in forming suspicions, but I've tried what I can, by keeping up on reading everything and by not throwing away votes. I've been wrong in voting so far too, but I can't believe you're seriously saying we just let Nessa go.

I am not sure, was that serious? If yes, then Boro looks suddenly really bad to me - because this sort of "GET OFF ME!" reaction is typical for him when he is a Wolf.

Or, as somebody has said, he might actually be the Cobbler, which would make sense too.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And do wolves forget that kind of stuff? I wouldn't.

And what of newbie Wolves? I can imagine it.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, not toss a coin, but Boro is treating Nessa as a known wolf, and Mac is treating her as a known innocent. I think it would be a bad idea to lynch her toDay for the same reason I thought it was to lynch her or Inzil yesterDay, but when it comes to everyone else I just find myself wondering how many cobblers this village has (of course, looking cobblerish is everyone's safest bet, but come on...)

I must say, in one way I really really dislike the fact that Nessa was almost lynched for like, what, three consecutive days. On the other hand, perhaps if she is a Wolf, she deserves the title of the "survivalist" and a credit for that. It would be nice to hear also from herself, for that matter. I have to say that I think there definitely are people more suspicious than her, she just seems to be the one whom most people have agreed on.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Clearly by now people know things. The wolves almost certainly have identified the cobbler, who probably has a good idea of them in turn. The seer knows a few people's roles, unless xe had the bad luck to choose those who are already dead. The wolves and cobbler probably feel an easy victory is nearly in hand. I certainly feel as though they're herding, or leading this village at this point, and I don't like it one bit.

I have an idea about someone who might know something, and I hope xe knows what I mean. If xe can in some way let me know if it's safe to mention this, I will; if anyone wonders, I, as the werebear Nog erroneously called an ordo , don't know anything at all (except that I know nothing).

I am really curious what is going to come out of this, because if you are on the village's side, I cannot see why you don't speak plainer, or what the thing you have in mind is. Okay, really curious.

skip looks fairly good to me now, by his posting.
Greenie does too.
Shasta's last post... well, on first sight, I wasn't sure, I didn't like all the "this and this is under my radar, this one as well," sort of detachedness which could be like "I don't know anything, don't mind me, just lynch somebody and then we'll see, if we are lucky, you have lynched one of your own and us Wolves will laugh into your face". But on the other hand, reading the stuff actually, he looks like might be really commited to that. Well, I think I will have a better picture of him after he does what he promised and takes a look at LRH and such, that would show that he is not just making stuff up but really doing it.

If Boro is the Cobbler, then I would say either Rikae and/or Mac and/or Agan are Wolves, or maybe all of them.

I don't know about LRH (still have the reasons for suspecting her as I had yesterDay, but the question is who are her packmates), Cailín and Mänwe are practically nonexistant (though Mänwe looks more innocent to me than not, while in Cailín's case I have no idea), and wilwa, well... I cannot say. I am completely at loss with Pitch. From the beginning till now. Totally under my radar. Pitch, where are you?

Let us not forget now, the Wolves will be reluctant to give up one of their packmates right now. They'll prefer us to lynch some totally random person. Therefore, everybody who is innocent, I suggest making it clear for you whom you suspect and whom you want to lynch, at least roughly, and not let yourselves swayed too much by that e.g. XY randomly mentioned this one, or another person suddenly randomly mentioned that one... Or, try to at least make it clear whom you don't want to lynch, I think that should be good enough for the beginning as well.

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie, Valar bless you for the voting summary - I have been actually thinking about the same, since with this huge game, it is really annoying that I could not review the votes properly all at once.

[A Little Green]

Day 2 votes (known innocents in italics)

Nessa – Rikae
(”I'm still really worried about Rikae, and it wouldn't sit right with me to vote some of the other speculated people when it's a whole mess in there.”)

BG – Nessa
(”Since yesterday I haven't felt really good with nessa since yesterday, more of a feeling that is hard to explain... She seems to have to much confidence in herself.”)

Lottie – Kit
(”I suppose I'll probably go with Kit so that the option is there if we decide to lynch her and see where her Hunt leaves us and whatnot.”)

skip – ed
(”This may seem random, and it is to a large degree, but I'd rather try a shot in the dark at a submarine at this point than at a person who's contributed more.”)

Eomer - Nessa 2
(”Nessa is still bothering me: she just feels like a wolf. The Ozban kill seems to tie in with it, so I'd be most inclined to kill Nessa today.”)

Shasta – Lottie
(”I don't like Lottie's vote. At all.”)

Pitch - Nessa 3
(”Now, I concur with whoever it was that said it (Shasta, I think) that the sallywagon could point to a wolf among the people leading in the tally before her; which would be me, Zil and Nessa (plus possibly Lottie, but she had only two votes). At the time the sallywagon got rolling for good, Zil and I had three votes each, Nessa four. Leaving myself aside (as I'm obviously biased here), I still don't think Zil looks particularly wolvish (and I think suspecting him because his first post was made too quickly is rather flimsy), whereas Nessa not only was leading the votes, thus in most urgent need to be saved, but there are also the Rikae affair and the Ozzy kill against her. Taking that together, I think I'll stick with my "baddie-baddie-bad-bad" vote from yesterDay.”)

Val – skip
(I think hes trying to be a clever wolf.)

Green – Inzil
(”Leaning bad - he's always driving me nuts because I can't read him at all, but though Lommy's point is almost too easy it makes sense. Three minutes is an awfully short time to read who died and figure all that out.”)

Rikae - Lottie 2
(”For her Kitanna vote and for being a submarine.”)

Lommy - Inzil 2
(”his first post toDay was incredibly fishy and nothing can change that.”)

Rikae - --Lottie 1
Rikae - Inzil 3
(”Ok, what with the psychics and the creepiness of Zil's last post”)

Cailín - Lottie 2
(”Because she seems so eager to wash her hands of all the blood that has been and will be spilled”)

Mac - Lottie 3
(”I could imagine going for Lottie myself (apart from what I said before, her vote for Kitanna is a very easy way out, which could be wolfish).” What he said before was ”Lottie -> Sally(3) (not good)” in a vote analysis and placing her in a list as ”Not really suspicious, but not really innocent either.”)

ed - Lottie 4
(”She seems the shadiest of all. Her Kit vote after the consensus had been to not vote that direction just seems to much like an easy way out.”)

Agan - Nessa 4
(”I don't really suspect any of them but she's the quietest.”)

Legate – Nessa 5
(”Well she is the one I am likely voting, by elimination method, as you can see.”)

Inzil – Lottie 5
(”Legate 180.”)

So Lottie 5, Nessa 5, Inzil 3, Skip 1, Ed 1, Kit 1, Rikae 1.

[A Little Green]

Day 3 votes (known innocents in italics)

Greenie – Inzil
(”Leaning wolf or cobbler at this point. I found him suspicious already before the Legate 180 -episode, and I'm still unconvinced an innocent Zil would have done that.”)

BG – Nessa
(”I have had a feeling about her since the beginning and it's not getting better.”)

Wilwa – Inzil 2
(”His last minute vote was strange (and if he's guilty Nessa does looks pretty bad), and his tone at the beginning of the Day today is really weird. His whole "I'll understand it if you lynch me".”)

Skip – Nessa 2
(”I think the points against her are strong enough for testing out.”)

Mac – Boro
(”Boro worries me a lot. If you have limited time to play, you try to come up with something helpful when you're around, trying to figure out what's going on. The points he does make are not up to his standards. Just compare Boro posts to the posts of time-challenged Skip toDay. Boro hasn't done anything of consequence since my analysis yesterDay, and my mind remains unchanged.”)

Rikae – Boro 2
(”Those top suspects aside, I think I'll actually have to follow the old ball and chain and vote for someone who should be loud, but isn't, and who is making me uneasy, and who I have other reasons to wonder about”)

Nessa – Legate
(”Because of how weirdly he's been acting. I can't explain it too thoroughly until tomorrow, as I have to go now.”)

Inzil – Boro 3
(”And we now have another viable candidate in Boro, whose vote for me on Day was for a rather questionable reason. He doesn't seem to be his usual, aggressive wolf-hunting self, either.”)

Shasta – Inzil 3
(”Elaboration on Inzil/Nessa - honestly, at this point, the pattern's just going to repeat itself again. If one of them don't go today, they're going to be all the discussion will be about tomorrow - which does make me wonder if clever wolves aren't leaving them alive for precisely that reason, but still.” and ”Inzil going after Nessa at this late stage makes me uneasy, almost as if he's preparing a vote for her in advance. My mind's made up.”)

Pitch – Inzil 4
(”Shasta's right, that messy Zil/Nessa business needs to be cleared up toDay. I guess I should stick to my guns and vote Nessa after all, but Zil actually looks worse toDay, if not by much.” and ”Bah. Might as well flip a coin.”)

Cailín – Inzil 5
(”It's a bandwagon, but I concede. There is something up with Inzil. First that analysis of elronds_daughter looks like he was fishing for another easy lynch of a quiet player. Now this sudden vote for Boromir whom he has not mentioned before. His behaviour yesterDay was strange for sure.”)

Manwe – Ed
(”At the moment I am inclined to remain watchful of the extremes, and will vote against the establishment here who seem to have overlooked by and large the players i've mentioned in my past posts. I wish I were the seer in order to confirm a couple of suspicions ive held since the beginning. A wolf hides in the extremes...

++elronds_daughter is someone i've mentioned in my posts, largely popping in to vote only, i'm voting for an extreme.”)

Eomer – Nessa 3
(”I really want to kill Nessa but, like I said earlier, wouldn't they have killed me (or one of the other Nessa voters) if she was guilty? It's quite possible she is the sacrifical wolf.”)

Legate – Nessa 4
(”I am not objecting either of Zil or Nessa, like I said, though if I could, I'd have preferred others... but let's just hope that the death of either of them will bring something good.”)

Agan – Inzil 6
(”Nessa didn't even try to save herself yesterday. Not sure a wolf would do that.”)

Boro – Inzil 7
(”Guess this cements it”)

after DL: Elra – Nessa 5
(”If we're wrong, we're wrong (and that's mostly terrible), but at least my biggest question mark will answered.”)

So Inzil 7, Nessa 4 or 5 (depending on whether or not Elra's vote counts), Boro 3, Elra 1, Legate 1.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Skip

Had a quick look at Mac's long analysis-post and I'm rather disturbed that he seems to regard Nessa as an innocent. Yes she might well be, but frankly, I fail to see how voting or suspecting Nessa (an unknown and ie possible baddie) objectively is much worse than voting and suspecting a now proven innocent. Huh, Mac?

Inzil and Nessa have been mentioned in the same breath or interchangeably a lot yesterDay. (In fact, it might be worth another close look at who did this in the worst way.) I'm almost certain that Nessa is innocent and handed to us as a scapegoat.

Anyway, I never said that voting or suspecting Nessa is worse. That's your addition, and it doesn't make me feel better one bit.

But just to satisfy you, this is roughly the count excluding everything about Nessa:

-9 Shasta -9
-8 Cailín -9+1
-8 Skip -8
-7 Agan -9+2
-6 Boro -6
-6 Greenie -6
-6 Legate -13+7
-6 Rikae -7+1
-4 Pitch -5+1
-1 wilwa -1
0 e_d -3+3

Only real difference is that Pitch looks better.

[A Little Green]

So here you are Skip, the votes of the remaining players, with my comments in italics where I had something to say:

elronds_daughter: Day 1 Pitch (3), Day 2 Lottie (4), Day 3 late Nessa (5)
Just going by the votes, Elra looks like a classic bandwagoner.

Macalaure: Day 1 no vote, Day 2 Lottie (3), Day 3 Boro

Shastanis Althreduin: Day 1 Lottie (2), Day 2 Lottie, Day 3 Inzil (3)
The curious part is that he votes Lottie twice in a row but seemingly for different reasons.

wilwarin538: Day 1 Sally, Day 2 no vote, Day 3 Inzil (2)

Nessa Telrunya: Day 1 Rikae, Day 2 Rikae, Day 3 Legate
At least she can't be blamed for bandwagoning. Every Day, a vote for someone no one else votes.

Pitchwife: Day 1 Nessa (3), Day 2 Nessa (3), Day 3 Inzil (4)
Votes only for the two "enigmas" Nessa and Inzil.

Rikae: Day 1 Wilwa, Day 2 Lottie (2), retraction to Inzil (3), Day 3 Boro (2)

Boromir88: Day 1 Inzil, Day 2 no vote, Day 3 Inzil (7)

A Little Green: Day 1 no vote, Day 2 Inzil, Day 3 Inzil

Skip Spence: Day 1 Sally (2), Day 2 Ed, Day 3 Nessa (2)
Easy votes, I'd say.

Mänwe: Day 1 not present, Day 2 no vote, Day 3 Ed

Legate of Amon Lanc: Day 1 Lottie, Day 2 Nessa (5), Day 3 Nessa (4)
Ends up voting Nessa twice though insists that he would rather have voted for someone else.

Aganzir: Day 1 Sally (5), Day 2 Nessa (4), Day 3 Inzil (6)
Just going by the votes, looks as much of a bandwagoner as Elra - but both two always vote late which we should take into account.

Caílin: Day 1 Agan, Day 2 Lottie (2), Day 3 Inzil (5)
The Day 1 vote for Agan did not have a game-related reason, she was busy. The other two votes look very easy to me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, looking now at the list of votes, and comparing it to my current suspicions, some of them are generally supported by it, or at least, there is not anything that would place them away. Mac really makes me raise eyebrows now, Elra, Pitch, Cailín too. Aganzir still remains a question. Boro is a Cobbler, if anybody is. Once again thinking of Rikae with her retraction or stuff, I should keep it in mind, that actually makes her look more innocent. I am actually inclined to rather believe in skip's innocence too. Similarly with Greenie herself. Interested about Shasta.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Nessa Telrunya: Day 1 Rikae, Day 2 Rikae, Day 3 Legate
At least she can't be blamed for bandwagoning. Every Day, a vote for someone no one else votes.

Well, one could of course say "that is detaching oneself from the lynch and bandwaggons for innocents", but I am actually of the opinion that it would make Nessa more like independant voter than a Wolf who tries to detach herself from lynches (also given that she voted early).

Originally Posted by Mänwe

"Throwaway" because she hasn't "said" as much as other players and so there isn't much to go on? My vote is based on suspicion like anyone elses, not to mention the fact it looked rather clear everyone had it in for Inzil before I voted and not to mention the fact that every majority vote has ended in an innocent being lynched so i'm glad i'm not listening to the majority

No, I meant that voting her at that point was throwaway because it did not seem very likely that elra could be lynched by that time (and I think that's rather clear from the fact that I wanted to vote her myself, but didn't exactly for this reason - actually by the time I voted, it was totally impossible to lynch her). I see your point being brave and noble and keeping your own mind, but at the points when the WWs are annoying us with two kills per Night, if I realise I cannot vote the person I want to, then I would try to vote probably one of those who still can be lynched, one whom I think to be more likely a Wolf. Unless of course I believe them all innocent.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Anyway, I never said that voting or suspecting Nessa is worse. That's your addition, and it doesn't make me feel better one bit.

Actually you're probably right. When I skimmed your analysis earlier I got the impression that you deducted more points from those who voted or suspected Nessa than those who voted or suspected Inzil which made me draw that conclusion. Now looking at it again I see it is now quite so, at least not in a conspicuous way.

Still that analysis of yours makes me wary. As far as I know voting Nessa might have a good vote. Yes it certainly seems like the wolves are offering her of a plate for us - and I agree that is the most likely scenario - but Nessa might also be a wolf, let's not forget that. Your analysis treats her as an innocent.

If we assume that Boro is the cobbler, a Mac-wolf's vote for Boro-cobbler (whom he probably knows the identity of) also makes sense to me, given that his long analysis is built on the Inzil/Nessa trail as an obvious set-up, and that he is casting suspicion on just about everyone who's partaken in it, and by implication making it a moral high-ground to stay away from it. He wouldn't have thought Boro would go end up lynched anyway I think, and if an accident were to happen, that wouldn't have been that bad for team-evil anyway. Hardly a problem at all in fact, given Agan's maths.

No, I'm not very happy about Mac. However, I feel I'm also reeling myself up. I should be around for most of the rest of the Day. Will step back and do some serious reading before drawing any serious conclusions.

Also, nice work with the vote-summaries Greenie!

Edit: x'ed with a few

(not saying that makes her look better, mind you, she is also one who we should have a closer look at)

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Coin tosses are bad but a throwaway vote for a silent player is not much better really.

Silent but potentially deadly in my opinion - everyone really has (as has now been mentioned a number of times after last nights lynchings and murders) overlooked the quiet players vote wise.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I would have seconded that, alas, I think it'd be a throwaway vote at this point, now that I see how many people are left to vote. I am not objecting either of Zil or Nessa, like I said, though if I could, I'd have preferred others... but let's just hope that the death of either of them will bring something good.

"Throwaway" because she hasn't "said" as much as other players and so there isn't much to go on? My vote is based on suspicion like anyone elses, not to mention the fact it looked rather clear everyone had it in for Inzil before I voted and not to mention the fact that every majority vote has ended in an innocent being lynched so i'm glad i'm not listening to the majority

Just for my own record, people who have been getting votes "wrong", (and who are still alive)

Dead Sally: Wilwa, skip, Agan

Dead Loslote: Shasta, Cailín, Mac, e_d

Dead Inzil: LG, wilwa, Shasta, Pitch, Cailín, Aganzir, Boro

Originally Posted by elronds_daughter

I don't only "pop in"...I'm around all day reading, I just generally don't have any input worth putting in. No lightbulbs, and my non-strategical brain is still getting the hang of this. I'm not nonexistent, I'm just not particularly vocal. Mostly I'm afraid of sticking my foot in my mouth like I did last game.

That's all I meant, my intention was to just highlight your style in this game so far, that you don't post often other than to vote (like me to be fair)..(and you list the reasons why, be they true or not )

~~

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Edit: Guess that Boro as the cobbler makes sense. If he is, do we let him get away with that?

Are you suggesting lynching a cobbler would be a good idea at this point?

I voted Boro because I thought he might be a seer-dreamed wolf. Legate, you should know better than to ask why an innocent would be so mysterious, and the fact that you ask makes me more distrustful of you.

As for Mac and I being more wolvish if Boro is the cobbler, that makes no sense at all, since the whole theory rests on us trying to lynch our cobbler knowingly and yet you're trying to explain it as voting for him unknowingly. There is a theory that collapses on itself. I suppose Boro as an alternative bandwagon because we didn't want to dirty our hands with the Inzil lynch would make sense, but for two wolves to vote on each others' heels like that merely to have an alternative wagon seems silly. Sure, I might. I might do anything. You're just going to have to live with that.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, though.

Boro, since you think lynching Nessa toDay is so important, can you give us your reasons?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I voted Boro because I thought he might be a seer-dreamed wolf. Legate, you should know better than to ask why an innocent would be so mysterious, and the fact that you ask makes me more distrustful of you.

If you think what I think you think, then let me basically say that I see no reason for the innocents not to speak plainly, because the WWs know as much as the innocents do anyway, and why I have been wondering is because what you said could have been a hint to a cobbler for all I know. Anyway, let's not speak of this further, I agree, but see my previous sentence (unless you have something totally different in mind. I'd just want to know, once the matter is settled, what it was).

EDIT: xed with skip and Nessa

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Are you suggesting lynching a cobbler would be a good idea at this point?

At the time I didn't have time to think it though, so it was an honest question ie "should we?" Seeing Agan's maths I think it wouldn't be a very good idea no.

And regarding your criticism of Legate, those little tricks you do Rikae, they are not very subtle, are they? If you are innocent, the wolves can plainly see them unless they are incompetent which I very much doubt. It certainly seems like something an innocent, possibly gifted, would try rather than a wolf, and I've seen you as a likely innocent because of this, but you would know this well also.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And regarding your criticism of Legate, those little tricks you do Rikae, they are not very subtle, are they? If you are innocent, the wolves can plainly see them unless they are incompetent which I very much doubt. It certainly seems like something an innocent, possibly gifted, would try rather than a wolf, and I've seen you as a likely innocent because of this, but you would know this well also.

They must be very subtle, since I have no idea what trick you were talking about.

[Rikae]

Skip, I can only assume that you're saying I couldn't have spotted any seer hint the wolves would have missed, since I'm not nearly as clever as they are. Well, if you say so. I can only assume you know what you're talking about...

[Rikae]

Someone said we should mention who we planned to vote. That is a good idea, as it helps the wolves to shift the lynch in the direction they prefer.

I'm prepared to vote for Skip, or possibly Boro again. Maybe Legate. What say you all?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Someone said we should mention who we planned to vote. That is a good idea, as it helps the wolves to shift the lynch in the direction they prefer.

I'm prepared to vote for Skip, or possibly Boro again. Maybe Legate. What say you all?

Brilliant, we should totally do this.

I really want to vote for Manwe. I could vote Boro or Skip, I suppose. Probably not Legate, though.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Skip, I can only assume that you're saying I couldn't have spotted any seer hint the wolves would have missed, since I'm not nearly as clever as they are. Well, if you say so. I can only assume you know what you're talking about...

Okay, to clarify: I was referring to that earlier post toDay that appeared to be addressed to the seer (though I didn't rightly understand it) and to some earlier mysterious posts (though I don't remember exactly when and where they can be found now). And no, my point wasn't to imply that you couldn't possibly pick up on any seer-hints, my point was that these tricksy, mysterious posts - like I said I seem to remember a few - are innocent-looking, but that I've just started to fear that this is only for show. I'm by no means sure, and at present I'm not really considering voting you.

This was the criticism of Legate I was referring to:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Legate, you should know better than to ask why an innocent would be so mysterious, and the fact that you ask makes me more distrustful of you.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Okay, to clarify: I was referring to that earlier post toDay that appeared to be addressed to the seer (though I didn't rightly understand it) and to some earlier mysterious posts (though I don't remember exactly when and where they can be found now). And no, my point wasn't to imply that you couldn't possibly pick up on any seer-hints, my point was that these tricksy, mysterious posts - like I said I seem to remember a few - are innocent-looking, but that I've just started to fear that this is only for show. I'm by no means sure, and at present I'm not really considering voting you.

This was the criticism of Legate I was referring to:

No, this doesn't really make sense in light of your original comment. I wasn't admonishing Legate for drawing attention to anything I said, but for seeking further explanation and suggesting I was not on the village's side if I didn't give it... or at least that's how I interpreted:

Originally Posted by Legate

because if you are on the village's side, I cannot see why you don't speak plainer

[A Little Green]

Someone (was it Legate?) said that Pitch looks better after his first post toDay. I disagree. I haven't been suspecting Pitch almost at all, but that post makes me wonder if I should.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Ouch. That lynch yesterDay was ein Griff ins Klo, as we say in German (roughly 'grabbed from the loo', in the sense that you get a handful of - well, you know what). Poor Zil, that was a nasty set-up by the wolves.

So far, I'm afraid we've made the wolves' job pretty easy, and our numbers are dwindling rapidly. Our big assets are that our two remaining gifteds are still alive, so there's still hope.

The tone of this doesn't strike me as genuine at all.

Originally Posted by Pitch

As to Rikae's mysterious #467 and the speculations about it - I think I see what she's driving at (or let's say I have a hypothesis), and if I'm right, I'd much rather nobody had mentioned it, least of all said "It certainly seems like something an innocent, possibly gifted, would try rather than a wolf" (skip! Really?).

And this, in the end of the same post, pinged all the radars I have. "I don't want attention drawn to this topic, but here I am talking about it!" does not strike me as sound logic - actually a lot like a cobbler doing his best to make the wolves spot something he did.


EDIT: x.ed with Wilwa, Skip and Rikae

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Boro, since you think lynching Nessa toDay is so important, can you give us your reasons?

I think it's obvious enough from the kills.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think it's obvious enough from the kills.

After Inzil? An Inzilwolf would have had more reason to think someone was on to him than Nessa would have.