WW: LXXXV - The Lost Philosophers of Maiar

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Edit: Guess that Boro as the cobbler makes sense. If he is, do we let him get away with that?

Are you suggesting lynching a cobbler would be a good idea at this point?

I voted Boro because I thought he might be a seer-dreamed wolf. Legate, you should know better than to ask why an innocent would be so mysterious, and the fact that you ask makes me more distrustful of you.

As for Mac and I being more wolvish if Boro is the cobbler, that makes no sense at all, since the whole theory rests on us trying to lynch our cobbler knowingly and yet you're trying to explain it as voting for him unknowingly. There is a theory that collapses on itself. I suppose Boro as an alternative bandwagon because we didn't want to dirty our hands with the Inzil lynch would make sense, but for two wolves to vote on each others' heels like that merely to have an alternative wagon seems silly. Sure, I might. I might do anything. You're just going to have to live with that.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, though.

Boro, since you think lynching Nessa toDay is so important, can you give us your reasons?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I voted Boro because I thought he might be a seer-dreamed wolf. Legate, you should know better than to ask why an innocent would be so mysterious, and the fact that you ask makes me more distrustful of you.

If you think what I think you think, then let me basically say that I see no reason for the innocents not to speak plainly, because the WWs know as much as the innocents do anyway, and why I have been wondering is because what you said could have been a hint to a cobbler for all I know. Anyway, let's not speak of this further, I agree, but see my previous sentence (unless you have something totally different in mind. I'd just want to know, once the matter is settled, what it was).

EDIT: xed with skip and Nessa

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Are you suggesting lynching a cobbler would be a good idea at this point?

At the time I didn't have time to think it though, so it was an honest question ie "should we?" Seeing Agan's maths I think it wouldn't be a very good idea no.

And regarding your criticism of Legate, those little tricks you do Rikae, they are not very subtle, are they? If you are innocent, the wolves can plainly see them unless they are incompetent which I very much doubt. It certainly seems like something an innocent, possibly gifted, would try rather than a wolf, and I've seen you as a likely innocent because of this, but you would know this well also.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And regarding your criticism of Legate, those little tricks you do Rikae, they are not very subtle, are they? If you are innocent, the wolves can plainly see them unless they are incompetent which I very much doubt. It certainly seems like something an innocent, possibly gifted, would try rather than a wolf, and I've seen you as a likely innocent because of this, but you would know this well also.

They must be very subtle, since I have no idea what trick you were talking about.

[Rikae]

Skip, I can only assume that you're saying I couldn't have spotted any seer hint the wolves would have missed, since I'm not nearly as clever as they are. Well, if you say so. I can only assume you know what you're talking about...

[Rikae]

Someone said we should mention who we planned to vote. That is a good idea, as it helps the wolves to shift the lynch in the direction they prefer.

I'm prepared to vote for Skip, or possibly Boro again. Maybe Legate. What say you all?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Someone said we should mention who we planned to vote. That is a good idea, as it helps the wolves to shift the lynch in the direction they prefer.

I'm prepared to vote for Skip, or possibly Boro again. Maybe Legate. What say you all?

Brilliant, we should totally do this.

I really want to vote for Manwe. I could vote Boro or Skip, I suppose. Probably not Legate, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Voting? Right now, I would prefer... well, I would not really put Boro as my first pick for a vote, as I think he is "just" a Cobbler, and not Mänwe, nor skip. Pitch, as he posted now, actually makes me feel a bit better about him. That limits my choices rather drastically, though. As Eomer wrote on the admin thread that Cailín is not around, I would perhaps not vote for her in her absence, that leaves me with Elron Hubbard or Shasta. The posts he has made now are moving him more to the suspicious side of my scale, with some of the vocabulary which even he pointed out as wishy-washy (I'm not putting him past saying that himself as a sort of double-bluff) and also with the possibility that he seeks a new target in Mänwe (whom I now think more likely innocent).

But still, lot to think about...

EDIT: x-ed with Skip

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Brilliant, we should totally do this.

Agreed. Give me a bit though, I'm still too confused.

Mac maybe, though I'd like to go back and read some of his earlier stuff before I commit to that. Let's not be hasty! In fact I've a bad feeling the wws are rubbing their hands with glee as we tear away at each other.

Will be back in a bit.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mac

Except for a little skirmishing with Pitch at the beginning

You call that "a little skirmishing", when I've been your constant top suspect (whom you, for some strange reason, never voted) for three Days, together with Boro, whom you only started to suspect because he defended me too much? And I'm beginning to look better all of a sudden exactly why?

That aside, I have to agree that we should all rethink our suspicions/look at people we've hitherto neglected. I've felt pretty good about Boro and skip for quite a while, and kind of undecided/leaning positive about Legate; some of this is based on early impressions I haven't really reexamined, so I should have a fresh look at them, but it would need some pretty blatant signs of wolvery for me to vote any of them in good conscience.

EDIT: x-ed from #503.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Skip, I can only assume that you're saying I couldn't have spotted any seer hint the wolves would have missed, since I'm not nearly as clever as they are. Well, if you say so. I can only assume you know what you're talking about...

Okay, to clarify: I was referring to that earlier post toDay that appeared to be addressed to the seer (though I didn't rightly understand it) and to some earlier mysterious posts (though I don't remember exactly when and where they can be found now). And no, my point wasn't to imply that you couldn't possibly pick up on any seer-hints, my point was that these tricksy, mysterious posts - like I said I seem to remember a few - are innocent-looking, but that I've just started to fear that this is only for show. I'm by no means sure, and at present I'm not really considering voting you.

This was the criticism of Legate I was referring to:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Legate, you should know better than to ask why an innocent would be so mysterious, and the fact that you ask makes me more distrustful of you.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Okay, to clarify: I was referring to that earlier post toDay that appeared to be addressed to the seer (though I didn't rightly understand it) and to some earlier mysterious posts (though I don't remember exactly when and where they can be found now). And no, my point wasn't to imply that you couldn't possibly pick up on any seer-hints, my point was that these tricksy, mysterious posts - like I said I seem to remember a few - are innocent-looking, but that I've just started to fear that this is only for show. I'm by no means sure, and at present I'm not really considering voting you.

This was the criticism of Legate I was referring to:

No, this doesn't really make sense in light of your original comment. I wasn't admonishing Legate for drawing attention to anything I said, but for seeking further explanation and suggesting I was not on the village's side if I didn't give it... or at least that's how I interpreted:

Originally Posted by Legate

because if you are on the village's side, I cannot see why you don't speak plainer

[A Little Green]

Someone (was it Legate?) said that Pitch looks better after his first post toDay. I disagree. I haven't been suspecting Pitch almost at all, but that post makes me wonder if I should.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Ouch. That lynch yesterDay was ein Griff ins Klo, as we say in German (roughly 'grabbed from the loo', in the sense that you get a handful of - well, you know what). Poor Zil, that was a nasty set-up by the wolves.

So far, I'm afraid we've made the wolves' job pretty easy, and our numbers are dwindling rapidly. Our big assets are that our two remaining gifteds are still alive, so there's still hope.

The tone of this doesn't strike me as genuine at all.

Originally Posted by Pitch

As to Rikae's mysterious #467 and the speculations about it - I think I see what she's driving at (or let's say I have a hypothesis), and if I'm right, I'd much rather nobody had mentioned it, least of all said "It certainly seems like something an innocent, possibly gifted, would try rather than a wolf" (skip! Really?).

And this, in the end of the same post, pinged all the radars I have. "I don't want attention drawn to this topic, but here I am talking about it!" does not strike me as sound logic - actually a lot like a cobbler doing his best to make the wolves spot something he did.


EDIT: x.ed with Wilwa, Skip and Rikae

[A Little Green]

I might consider voting Skip, Pitch or Cailín - probably not Cailín toDay though if she's not around. I could be persuaded to try Mac, Rikae or Shasta, but not before I've taken a better look at them.

[skip spence]

A Little Green:

Day 1:
Greenie start out with a little bickering with Agan, suggests she might be a cobbler or worse.

She thinks Pitch looks like he always does (he was suspected at this time), that Nessa's defence of him was odd, and goes back-and-forth about Rikae for withdrawing her suspicion on Pitchie.

No vote

Day 2:
Explains her no-vote: she had computer-problems. She goes on to bicker some more with Agan (harmless stuff really), shares a moment with Shasta, excuses herself for low participation and makes a list. Her only real suspect is Inzil.

Inziladun - Leaning bad - he's always driving me nuts because I can't read him at all, but though Lommy's point is almost too easy it makes sense. Three minutes is an awfully short time to read who died and figure all that out.

Then she is helpful in summing up the votes that far and votes Inzil without any further explanation.

Day 3:
Quoting this in it's entirety:

Inzil looks bad. I don't know if the wolves would really take so much pains to frame a single innocent. To state the obvious, he is either

a) a misguided innocent who honestly made a mistake at the end of yesterDay. Possible, I suppose. However, the timing of his vote is as last minute as can be, it looks calculated. The resigned attitude toDay doesn't look innocent to me, either. We need to catch a wolf, and if he is innocent he should speak out for himself so we don't make the wrong choice.

b) a wolf. If Inzil is a wolf, it would point to Nessa being one too, otherwise he wouldn't have bothered. It would have been a pretty extreme move for a wolf though, since in saving one wolf he would have two of them highly suspected the next Day. Is the two kills per Night advantage that important to them? Or do we have an insanely bold pack who decided to sacrifice half of them to cause havoc and let the other half slip by unnoticed? No, it wouldn't make sense unless Inzil believed himself already seer-dreamed, but the Night's kills speak against that - neither Valier nor Lommy seemed like Seers who had dreamed Inzilwolf. Or was he just otherwise certain he and Nessa were going to be suspected the next Day anyway?

c) a cobbler. This is actually beginning to look like the most sensible option to me. A cobbler would be ready to make a drastic move to save a believed wolf from the gallows - or even, come to think of it, an innocent, thus misleading the village royally. His "kill me if you like, but you're wasting your time" -attitude looks quite cobblerish, too. If I have the time I might go through Inzil's early posts to see if there is anything resembling a cobbler hint. His previous behaviour struck me more wolvish than cobblerish though.

Gah. Enough about Inzil, there are sixteen other people to look at. Well, fifteen. For example, I haven't seen any talk at all about the Lottie-wagon. What, exactly, were the arguments for lynching her?

I'm not fond of Legate's tone here. The first paragraph is pessimistic, which is doubtlessly how the wolves want us to feel. The second is the classic wishy-washy Legate, he pretty much says that everyone could be a wolf actually, without being definite about anyone. And, like Cailín, I don't quite approve of him saying that us as wolves would account for awkward kills!

Greenie then goes on to criticize Legate (agreeing with Cailin who made the same point) for his friends-don't-kill-friends argument. Legate has been going on about how the wolves probably aren't Agan or Greenie, because they wouldn't have Night-killed Ozban or Kath who are their friends and who haven't played for a while. I agree with Greenie and Cailin that this is a dodgy point especially since it also seems to conveniently clear himself. And I don't think RL-considerations would stop Agan or Greenie (or Legate for that matter), were they wolves and deemed it the best alternative. I should hope not anyway. It's even possible someone (Legate?) is trying to hide behind it.

Then she makes another list (after criticizing Legate again for his assumptions regarding the kills). Her suspects:

NOT COMFORTABLE WITH
Nessa - I'm not comfortable with her track record. Her role could tell us a lot about others. The thing that bothers me most about her is that she's being too calm for an innocent openly framed by the wolves.
Inziladun - Agh. I think I've ranted enough about him already. Leaning wolf or cobbler at this point. I found him suspicious already before the Legate 180 -episode, and I'm still unconvinced an innocent Zil would have done that.
Skip - If he's a wolf, he's a daring one. But he has done bold moves before, and Valier's death does point at him.
Legate - Makes me uneasy. He's fishy on top of his normal wishy-washy.

She later softens her stance on Legate, says he makes more sense now.

Goes on to vote for Inzil without further explanation after another little episode with Agan.

Comments:
In the light of Inzil's innocence Greenie's two votes for him looks bad, and her reasons aren't that good either. However, Innocents have voted Inzil obviously, and without a wolf down it is really hard to find a solid reason against anyone bar a bad slip. I find her bickering with Agan somewhat disturbing. Could they perhaps be fellows, making an early scene when then accuse each other. Plausible certainly, but then again, they are of course good real-life friends who enjoy each other's company and that is maybe a more probable explanation for the exchanges.

Has been very careful not to put herself in the spotlight which often is a bad sign. Then again, she says she has little time.

Seems more active toDay though and looks sharp. Gawd, this is also going to sound wishy-washy, but I really have no clue. If she is a wolf, her poker-face is commendable. But no, I don't think I'll be voting Greenie (though I would to save myself).

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Boro, since you think lynching Nessa toDay is so important, can you give us your reasons?

I think it's obvious enough from the kills.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think it's obvious enough from the kills.

After Inzil? An Inzilwolf would have had more reason to think someone was on to him than Nessa would have.