Magic in Middle-earth

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

"All the time" would be an exaggeration. As I said earlier, I thought long and hard and couldn't think of a single example of her singing with intent in an inn. In a public inn, she sings for the enjoyment of those around her. Outside, in the wild, she is more apt to sing songs devoted to one or another of the Valar, to call protection and growth upon the land.

Elves don't need to sing all the time or do anything such to radiate magic all the time. It just radiates from them because they have it, because it's innate - like light comes from the Sun without any particular effort on the Sun's part.

As with the exapmle of Aragorn, sometimes the "magic" is covered. You seem to view it with an allusion of turning on a flashlight every once in a while. I see it differently - covering the light of the flashlight every once in a while.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Elves don't need to sing all the time or do anything such to radiate magic all the time. It just radiates from them because they have it, because it's innate - like light comes from the Sun without any particular effort on the Sun's part.

As with the example of Aragorn, sometimes the "magic" is covered. You seem to view it with an allusion of turning on a flashlight every once in a while. I see it differently - covering the light of the flashlight every once in a while.

Frodo, wearing the ring on Weathertop, was able to see the Nazgûl clearly. At the ford near Rivendell, when he was starting to fade from the Morgul blade wound, he could see Glorfindel as glowing white, and could see the Nazgûl, but Aragorn and the other hobbits could be seen only dimly. When Frodo first wakes at Rivendell, Gandalf conjectures that the Morgul wound might change Frodo, not for ill, but that those with eyes to see could detect that he was more than just a hobbit. He wouldn't glow as bright as Glorfindel, but something would be there to see.

Ambarquenta defines the spell 'sense power.' Sense power will do the above, allow one to sense those who radiate magic. It also allows one to sense enchanted items or spells in progress. By the AQ character generation rules, any elf inclined to learn could sense power, but very very few dwarves, hobbits or ordinary men could do so. I could see a moderately strict game master saying no hobbit or dwarf could learn spells, including sense power.

I am not claiming AQ as a canon source, but I think they got sense power more or less right. Details could certainly be debated. I am not at all certain that it should be all that easy for an elf to learn to sense power, for example.

Anyway, should Frodo put on the Ring and thus gain the ability to sense power, Glorfindel's power would be obvious, while Aragorn's would not be. Take off the Ring, Frodo would no longer be able to sense their magic power, but could sense their inherent nobility. Glorfindel might still beat out Aragorn somewhat, but not nearly by so much. Aragorn might often subdue his true nobility of spirit, but even so Aragorn might look foul but feel fair to the astute observer. Frodo was a pretty good judge of character, picked up a trace of Aragorn's nobility, but that might well be good old hobbit common sense rather than any occult ability. Sam was still dubious.

In short, I would agree that certain people radiate magical power. I would question whether a typical hobbit, dwarf or human would be able to sense it. Also, while those with magical power will often have some form of noble spirit, the link between nobility and occult power is not a fixed lock. There are many with strong honorable characters who can't use spells.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

By the AQ character generation rules, any elf inclined to learn could sense power, but very very few dwarves, hobbits or ordinary men could do so. I could see a moderately strict game master saying no hobbit or dwarf could learn spells, including sense power.

How is "sensing power" a spell? And I doubt that Elves learned that many spells - they learned crafts, nature, they became more skilled at things, but not spells.

Anyway, should Frodo put on the Ring and thus gain the ability to sense power,

But does the Ring give the ability to sense power?

There are many with strong honorable characters who can't use spells.

I don't recall too many that do. There are hardly any instances when actual spells are used - the only ones I remember are Gandalf lighting the fire on Caradhras and when wolves attacked them before Moria.

There is also "mellon", but anyone who knew how to say the word could open the Gates with it. It's not a special ability.

Take off the Ring, Frodo would no longer be able to sense their magic power, but could sense their inherent nobility.

The two are often connected. You might also have noticed that Aragorn was the one with the healing powers, and not Glorfindel. The latter also had some skill in that area, true. But still, Aragorn's hands do wonders with athelas; magic.

Glorfindel faced the Nazgul. Aragorn did that, and in addition he looked in the Palantir. That's not really magic, it's willpower. But it is still magical.

In short, I would agree that certain people radiate magical power.

I'd say that all people do, except that some do more or clearer than others.

I would question whether a typical hobbit, dwarf or human would be able to sense it.

If it's "bright" enough. As an example, reread the little chat Frodo had with Sam about magic and Elves in Lothlorien.

Also, while those with magical power will often have some form of noble spirit, the link between nobility and occult power is not a fixed lock.

No, but such power is often passed on by lineage, as is noble spirit. Not always, but often.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How is "sensing power" a spell? And I doubt that Elves learned that many spells - they learned crafts, nature, they became more skilled at things, but not spells.

As I said a few posts up, 'spell' is a much better word to use in Harry Potter's subcreation, a much poorer word to use in Frodo's. I am very much open to a different word. However, that you do not like the word 'spell' doesn't imply Tom Bombadil can't keep himself dry by waving his arms, or that Gandalf can't repel Nazgul by shooting beams of light from his hand.

When the Fellowship was in Lorien, Galadriel looks into the eyes of each of the Fellowship in turn, and learns something of their motives and intent. AQ has labeled this ability a 'spell'. That you do not like the word 'spell' does not imply that the scene isn't in the book.

Similarly, after the wedding of Eowyn and Faramir, as the Rivendell party and the Lorien parties are about to each go their own way, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others looked into each others eyes and communicated directly mind to mind. AQ defines this ability as a spell as well.

Again, I'm open to using a different word for such abilities should you care to nominate one. 'Spell' isn't an ideal choice. However, 'crafts', 'nature', and 'skill' do not seem to be appropriate words either.

I would agree that most elves don't learn very many... whatever you want to call them. In Goldie's off line game, she currently knows four.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But does the Ring give the ability to sense power?

If I remember Gandalf's description correctly, it allows one to step into a world of spirits. You can see them. They can see you. A Morgul knife does this too. When one is in this world of spirits, Glorfindel radiates magic in much the way you describe, while others in the living realm are much less visible.

Thinking of a counter example, Frodo briefly wears the Ring in the presence of Tom Bombadil. There is no mention of Tom's appearance changing, or of Sam, Merry and Pippin's appearance changing. Tom is clearly very powerful. Does Tom not radiate a magical aura? Is his magic different from Glofindel's? Does the Ring have no power or hold over Tom? Was Tolkien more interested in telling a good tale than keeping his magic system 100% consistent? I don't know. I don't know that anyone knows for certain. If we really wanted to, we could string out such questions indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't recall too many that do. There are hardly any instances when actual spells are used - the only ones I remember are Gandalf lighting the fire on Caradhras and when wolves attacked them before Moria.

See above.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There is also "mellon", but anyone who knew how to say the word could open the Gates with it. It's not a special ability.

Agreed. The power would be in the gate, not the speaker. Similarly, one doesn't have to know magic to stab someone with Sting.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The two are often connected. You might also have noticed that Aragorn was the one with the healing powers, and not Glorfindel. The latter also had some skill in that area, true. But still, Aragorn's hands do wonders with athelas; magic.

I agree Aragorn has (insert some word or another here) regarding healing and also prophecy. As I don't want anyone to try to hurt me, I shall not write an essay on the difference between a talent and a spell. Must resist. Got to resist! Arrrgh! (Pant pant pant.) Sorry. I just can't do it! One is born with talents, but can potentially learn new spells.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Glorfindel faced the Nazgul. Aragorn did that, and in addition he looked in the Palantir. That's not really magic, it's willpower. But it is still magical.

Agreed. Like the gate at Moria, or a hobbit wielding Sting, the magic is in the Palantír, not the person looking into it. Still, Aragorn had enough willpower to mind wrestle with Sauron, which is pretty darn impressive.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I'd say that all people do, except that some do more or clearer than others.

You might be right. Going back to the ford at Rivendell, with Frodo fading from the Morgul wound, he could see Glorfindel clearly while Aragorn, Sam, Merry and Pippin were much less easy to see. Perhaps the ability of wraiths to see those in the land of the living corresponds to the strength of their magical aura?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, but such power is often passed on by lineage, as is noble spirit. Not always, but often.

Agreed.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

When the Fellowship was in Lorien, Galadriel looks into the eyes of each of the Fellowship in turn, and learns something of their motives and intent. AQ has labeled this ability a 'spell'. That you do not like the word 'spell' does not imply that the scene isn't in the book.

Well, perhaps it was meant as a different meaning of "spell" - not an incantation, but as in "a spell of rain" or something like that. But I still don't like the word - it sound like the person has to force it, and that it's temporary. I don't want to press this matter further, because I've said all that I have to say about it.

Similarly, after the wedding of Eowyn and Faramir, as the Rivendell party and the Lorien parties are about to each go their own way, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others looked into each others eyes and communicated directly mind to mind. AQ defines this ability as a spell as well.

The people you list are high Elves and a Maia. They have these innate abilities.

If I remember Gandalf's description correctly, it allows one to step into a world of spirits. You can see them. They can see you. A Morgul knife does this too. When one is in this world of spirits, Glorfindel radiates magic in much the way you describe, while others in the living realm are much less visible.

You step into a realm of wraiths, not of magic. Glorfindel was clearly seen because he was born in Aman - he's one of the special cases.

Thinking of a counter example, Frodo briefly wears the Ring in the presence of Tom Bombadil. There is no mention of Tom's appearance changing, or of Sam, Merry and Pippin's appearance changing. Tom is clearly very powerful. Does Tom not radiate a magical aura?

Sure he does. Part of his magic and power is that the evilness of the Ring has less strength in hs realm.

Moreover, do you remember how Frodo, and then he other hobbits started singing in imitation of Tom shortly after coming into his house? That is what I'd call the effects of his magical presence/radiance.

Is his magic different from Glofindel's?

Quite. His strength lies in happiness.

[quote]Does the Ring have no power or hold over Tom?[/qote]

Evidently no, seeing as he doesn't become invisible when he puts it on.

Arguably, you could say that it would tempt him, if he could possibly be tempted with anything. However, he's one truly happy and carefree person; he doesn't need or want anything else. He has all that he wants. He's hopelessly uncorruptable.

Plus, he's an enigma that was meant to be left as such. If you put too many details about someone he stops being an enigma.

But that's an entirely different thing altogether.

Was Tolkien more interested in telling a good tale than keeping his magic system 100% consistent? I don't know. I don't know that anyone knows for certain. If we really wanted to, we could string out such questions indefinitely.

100% consistent? I think it is. It's his book, and unlike Rowling he didn't put any specific limitations on "what could be done with magic". There is different magic.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, that one's basically mental telepathy (Tolkien did actually lay down rules for how it worked, though the essay in question was unknown until a few years ago). And note that this, and the ability to sense another's power, were already cited by G55 as examples of "subtle magic"!

Now, I can quite understand AQ classing them as "spells" for convenience, and I appreciate that you're just using the word for want of a better. In fact, I believe the only reason anyone is nitpicking about it is that it looks like the word "spell" is causing a bit of a definition-creep in your own mind– as your Elf-character is, apparently habitually, doing something much closer to the traditional definition of "casting a spell":

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Well, perhaps it was meant as a different meaning of "spell" - not an incantation, but as in "a spell of rain" or something like that. But I still don't like the word - it sound like the person has to force it, and that it's temporary. I don't want to press this matter further, because I've said all that I have to say about it.

The people you list are high Elves and a Maia. They have these innate abilities.

I like the word 'abilities'. This might be used in place of the S word. I shall note that AQ has separate categories for skills, spells, talents and edges. All might be described as abilities. There are reasons an ability might be placed in one category or another, but I won't go into that.

I am going to go into AQ game mechanics more than I like, below, not because they are perfect and canon, but because they provide a clear framework to answer the questions raised above.

If one has three appropriate skill levels, one can use the ability 'sense power,' but one must use both incantations and gestures to make it work. If one has six skill levels, one needs only use incantations or gestures. If one has nine skill levels, one need use neither incantations or gestures. If one has thirteen skill levels, one can use the ability 'at will'. One need not spend time thinking about it, one need not roll dice, and using the ability does not make one tired.

The game master of Goldie's off line game and I are stretching the character advancement system a bit to get her nine skill levels. Neither one of us think elves using the Art for minor subtle things should be performing incantations or waving their arms around. Both of us want use of such abilities to be subtle.

Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel would have at least 13 skill levels in that telepathic ability. They would be using that ability 'at will' or as an 'innate ability.' It seems plausible that lesser beings might use the same ability, but not so easily.

Uglub the Black Corsair of Umbar and dabbler in sorcery might well have very few skill levels. He might have to incant and wave like a Hogwart graduate to do anything.

Gandalf in breaking Saurman's staff used words. Gandalf in lighting the fire in the pass above Moria used a gesture. Gandalf describing to Gimli how he cast a spell to lock the door against the balrog said such things take time. It follows that not everything Gandalf does is 'at will' or is an 'innate ability.' Not everything is effortless, even for him. There ought to be some signs that using some abilities is not trivial, that sometimes he has to work at it.

I also note that Tolkien uses very high level, very powerful characters. Gandalf the wizard, Aragorn heir to kings, Boromir heir to stewards, Legolas son of kings, Thorin head of house... We thus see magic and weapons use at the most potent level. If one is writing fan fiction or creating a role playing environment, unless one is using Tolkien's characters, one often wants to down power things. We have lots of examples about how things work at the most potent level, but nothing about more moderate adventures.

As neither Uglub the Black Corsair or anyone like him has appeared in Tolkien's works, it would be valid to say there are no low level folk that can use only minor magics, and only with a struggle. This might be a valid approach to writing fan fiction close to canon. Take it too far though, and one ends up with Tolkien without magic. The option of extrapolating down from the greater magics into something less seems a valid choice, though it could easily cause purists to itch.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, again, as a practical consideration, that probably about as subtle as you could make magic use in a game of that type– but again I have to ask, how relevant is it?

Goldie -- Aerlinn Maltheniel -- perceives the world through other senses. She shapes the world using other tools. She isn't just a pretty girl who will live a long time. Her personality, world view and values have been shaped by her culture and her abilities. In any given scene, the chances of her wanting to use an ability in a way any other character would notice might be near nil. That isn't relevant.

That she is not living in the world that shaped her could be problematic, though. What she would see as important, and what she would do to respond to something she sees as important, might seem entirely off base.

I go a bit nuts with my non-human characters. In a series of Star Trek games, I created and played the Joy Class Androids. They fed six laws of robotics through an Asimov Processor and then into an emotion chip. The Joys could generally pass as human, but they lacked free will and were in some ways highly predictable. Most of the time they would be obedient followers of orders, but every once in a while they would run into a situation where their programming would throw a curve into a plot line. (When the Prime Directive is Priority One, while obeying orders is Priority Three, there can occasionally be a problem.)

Goldie might be like that too in her own way. She might not have an asimov processor, but she will sometimes respond to situations in unexpected ways. As the Joys had problems in games that stepped away from the spirit of Roddenberry, Goldie too might have problems. I'd like to think this could be a feature, but to others it might easily be a bug.

[Galadriel55]

I can see why the RPG classified "abilities" (if you like that word) and strengths and etc. However, in the legendarium, there is no such classification, and the categories blantyr lists are often linked and interrelated. As Nerwen said before, you can't apply the AQ rules to Tolkien.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

As I said a few posts up, 'spell' is a much better word to use in Harry Potter's subcreation, a much poorer word to use in Frodo's. I am very much open to a different word. However, that you do not like the word 'spell' doesn't imply Tom Bombadil can't keep himself dry by waving his arms, or that Gandalf can't repel Nazgul by shooting beams of light from his hand.

When the Fellowship was in Lorien, Galadriel looks into the eyes of each of the Fellowship in turn, and learns something of their motives and intent. AQ has labeled this ability a 'spell'. That you do not like the word 'spell' does not imply that the scene isn't in the book.

Similarly, after the wedding of Eowyn and Faramir, as the Rivendell party and the Lorien parties are about to each go their own way, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and others looked into each others eyes and communicated directly mind to mind. AQ defines this ability as a spell as well.

Again, I'm open to using a different word for such abilities should you care to nominate one. 'Spell' isn't an ideal choice. However, 'crafts', 'nature', and 'skill' do not seem to be appropriate words either.

Well, that one's basically mental telepathy (Tolkien did actually lay down rules for how it worked, though the essay in question was unknown until a few years ago). And note that this, and the ability to sense another's power, were already cited by G55 as examples of "subtle magic"!

Now, I can quite understand AQ classing them as "spells" for convenience, and I appreciate that you're just using the word for want of a better. In fact, I believe the only reason anyone is nitpicking about it is that it looks like the word "spell" is causing a bit of a definition-creep in your own mind– as your Elf-character is, apparently habitually, doing something much closer to the traditional definition of "casting a spell":

Originally Posted by blantyr

Outside, in the wild, she is more apt to sing songs devoted to one or another of the Valar, to call protection and growth upon the land.

And let's remember, you cited this as something you feel she needs to be doing, because

Originally Posted by blantyr

Tolkien without magic isn't Tolkien. An elf without the Art isn't really an elf.

Now, again, as a practical consideration, that probably about as subtle as you could make magic use in a game of that type– but again I have to ask, how relevant is it?

EDIT:X'd with G55; terminology error.