Magic in Middle-earth

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You mean it's simply Nimrodel's ghost hanging round the stream? Perhaps, though I'd appreciate a source for this– I cannot find this "tale" even at the not-exactly-infallible Tolkiengateway. (The thing about Elves rejecting the call of Mandos is all right, though– it's from Tolkien's later writings, published in "Morgoth's Ring".)

Yep. It may just be Nimrodel's ghost. I tried to find the source on this, but wasn't able to retrace. I remember it as someone's opinion, not as a Tolkien canon reference. I'll try to dig a bit more.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But as a general thing– you can try and explain away individual cases, but it seems hard to me to deny that places in Middle-earth can in themselves be "sacred" or "accursed"– often because of things that happened, or people who lived there. This indeed may be related to "crafting magic".

I'd agree with a place taking on personality or emotion if a people lived there long enough, or an extreme event occurred there. (The Dead Marshes might be an example of the latter. Minas Morgul in the early Fourth Age might be another example of a place taking on the character of its inhabitants.) The process could well be related to crafting magic, where a bit of one's spirit might linger. Caradhras? Maybe something started it long ago, but if so we might never know.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Descendants, not actual sons– so there's no such problem as you assume.

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

For any lesser being it's more a matter of conjecture– cf. when Sam "calls" the rope to him by saying Galadriel's name. At least Sam thinks that's what happened; Frodo laughs at him and says it was just a badly-tied knot.

One might also credit the rope, or the crafts person who made the rope. Don't really know, though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

They were descendants of Durin the Deathless, but none of the Durins that followed Durin I were direct descendants (ie., sons) of the previous Durin. The appearances of Durins seem to be generational, with six versions popping up from the 1st through 4th Ages.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd agree with a place taking on personality or emotion if a people lived there long enough, or an extreme event occurred there. (The Dead Marshes might be an example of the latter. Minas Morgul in the early Fourth Age might be another example of a place taking on the character of its inhabitants.) The process could well be related to crafting magic, where a bit of one's spirit might linger. Caradhras? Maybe something started it long ago, but if so we might never know.

Another example would be Hollin, where, according to Legolas, the stones still remember the Elves who once lived there.

You know Caradhras is different, though, because there seems to be a real consciousness and purpose behind it, in a way that doesn't apply to the other examples. So I don't know that we can rule out its being inhabited by an actual evil spirit of some kind. There are quite a lot of beings of unknown origin in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

Why not?

EDIT:X'd with Morthoron.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Another example would be Hollin, where, according to Legolas, the stones still remember the Elves who once lived there.

I'd like to work the other side of this one. Yes, Hollin is an example of a place where the stones have an echo of a people long gone. What might be interesting is that Legolas was able to read this, while to my knowledge no one else could.

Legolas also read Fangorn forest when he Gimli and Aragorn first came there. It was ancient, there were echoes of places far away where the hearts of the trees were black, and I believe he picked up echoes of the entmoot, hints that the forest was about to explode in wrath against Saruman.

The Fangorn example might not be best understood as reading echoes of occupants long gone, but the mood of the current occupants still living. Is he reading the land or is he reading its current people? Is there a major distinction between the two, or might both be an aspect of elven telepathy?

We have touched on elven telepathy before. We had Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond looking mind to mind just before the Rivendell and Lorien parties went their separate ways after Theoden's funeral. We had Galadriel testing the Fellowship. Galadriel also told Frodo that she knew all of Sauron's mind that pertained to the elves. This is impressive given how Saruman and Denethor came to grief through use of the Palantír.

Frodo also asked Galadriel how it was that when he put on the ring he couldn't read the minds of the other ring bearers. Her response was that he had not tried, that he should not try, that he would have to train himself before he could use that power. This sounds right, but how did she know he had not tried? How deep did she go in Frodo's mind? As with Sauron, does she know all of Frodo's mind that pertains to the elves?

In many fantasy books that deal with telepathy, there is an overt theme of the ethics of using the ability. There are things that are done, and things that are not. In Tolkien's works, if there are ethics, they aren't spoken of explicitly. The impression I get is that Galadriel wouldn't share things she learns this way unless it would be vital to her people or the West. However, I'm starting to get the impression that if knowledge is vital, the notion of mental privacy isn't high on her list of ethical principles?

I'd one other thought. When Frodo reaches the base of Mount Doom, he gets 'pushed.' He gets told to go on now, quickly, or it will be too late. I've always sort of assumed that this was Gandalf nudging him on. Now, I'm not so sure. Galadriel? She is the telepath with a mirror to see, while Gandalf is master of fire and light.

I've a few general observations and questions that others might comment on. Galadriel would be better at telepathy than most anyone else, much much better than the average elf? I suspect her ring would enhance her abilities, while her mirror might enhance her range? Still, she sensed a darkness in Fëanor long before either ring or mirror? She would be very good even without external aids?

I don't know that Legolas would be typical. He is son of a king and might be better at reading the land than others. Do others think his ability to read the land might be associated with elven telepathy, or might it be a unique specialized ability like Aragorn's healing and prophecy? Might telepathy be described as reading another's fëa, whether said fëa is linked to a body, a land, or possibly even enchanted items? Any examples of the last?

While Gandalf on occasion will use wizardly techniques such as gestures or words of power, can anyone think of an occasion where such methods have been associated with elven telepathy? I sort of assume Saruman and the other Istari use gestures and words, but this is an assumption. Are there examples of the use of gestures or words of power being used by anyone but Gandalf?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd like to work the other side of this one. Yes, Hollin is an example of a place where the stones have an echo of a people long gone. What might be interesting is that Legolas was able to read this, while to my knowledge no one else could.

Legolas was the only Elf in the Fellowship. Elves are closer to nature, so they communicate on an invisible level.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Legolas also read Fangorn forest when he Gimli and Aragorn first came there. It was ancient, there were echoes of places far away where the hearts of the trees were black, and I believe he picked up echoes of the entmoot, hints that the forest was about to explode in wrath against Saruman.

Again, Elves are closer to nature and can read and understand things inside of it much better that men, hobbits, and Dwarves. Other Elves can do it too. Legolas said at the council that Elves found traces of Gollum-"ghost" amongst the talks of the animals, but couldn't follow because they lead to Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by blantyr

The Fangorn example might not be best understood as reading echoes of occupants long gone, but the mood of the current occupants still living. Is he reading the land or is he reading its current people? Is there a major distinction between the two, or might both be an aspect of elven telepathy?

As I said before, he's just an Elf. He's also closer to this particular type of nature - trees - that some other Eves (like Cirdan's folk) are.

Originally Posted by blantyr

We had Galadriel testing the Fellowship. Galadriel also told Frodo that she knew all of Sauron's mind that pertained to the elves. This is impressive given how Saruman and Denethor came to grief through use of the Palantír.

Galadriel is more powerful than Denethor. She is the last descendant of the Kings of Noldor in ME.

She kind of plays the role of Melian in the 3rd Age. In The Sil it says about Morgoth that his thought often came to Doriath, but there was foiled by Melian (sorry, I don't have my book with me now, I can't give the exact quote). Both are equally impressive - a High Elf beating a Maia, and a Maia beating a Vala.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Frodo also asked Galadriel how it was that when he put on the ring he couldn't read the minds of the other ring bearers. Her response was that he had not tried, that he should not try, that he would have to train himself before he could use that power. This sounds right, but how did she know he had not tried? How deep did she go in Frodo's mind? As with Sauron, does she know all of Frodo's mind that pertains to the elves?

Mt guess is that if Frodo would have tried, the result would have been obvious - either on Nenya or on Frodo.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I've a few general observations and questions that others might comment on. Galadriel would be better at telepathy than most anyone else, much much better than the average elf?

I'd assume so, because she is a High Elf of noble birth.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Still, she sensed a darkness in Fëanor long before either ring or mirror?

Intuition. Closeness with nature. Ability to "tell" one's character (that is not unique to her).

Originally Posted by blantyr

She would be very good even without external aids?

I believe so.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't know that Legolas would be typical. He is son of a king and might be better at reading the land than others. Do others think his ability to read the land might be associated with elven telepathy, or might it be a unique specialized ability like Aragorn's healing and prophecy?

Neither. He's just an Elf, and all elves are close to nature. Some may be closer to the Sea, others - to trees, but all feel it much keener than other races.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Are there examples of the use of gestures or words of power being used by anyone but Gandalf?

The WK screams am incantation three times before the Gate of Minas Tirith was broken. Aragorn sings something over the blade on Weathertop (I can't remember - was if Frodo's or the Nazguls?).

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Legolas was the only Elf in the Fellowship. Elves are closer to nature, so they communicate on an invisible level.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, that one's basically mental telepathy (Tolkien did actually lay down rules for how it worked, though the essay in question was unknown until a few years ago).

I don't want to disagree with either of the above. I just wonder if one might define mental telepathy as the ability to communicate on an invisible level. As so many of the elves other unusual abilities have aspects of telepathy -- communication from fëa to fëa -- it seems to fit.

In Hollin, Legaolas seemed able to communicate with the rocks. In Fangorn, the forest. In more mundane realities, in order to communicate with something, that something ought to have a fairly advanced brain. In Middle Earth, things without brains can acquire fëa, and you can communicate with them. We have already discussed how a land might absorb something of the personality of the people who lived there, or echo in the aftermath of a strong event. I might suggest that this natural bleed of fëa might be a less structured variation of 'craftsmanship,' the putting of a bit of one's self into an item one builds.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't want to disagree with either of the above. I just wonder if one might define mental telepathy as the ability to communicate on an invisible level. As so many of the elves other unusual abilities have aspects of telepathy -- communication from fëa to fëa -- it seems to fit.

In Hollin, Legaolas seemed able to communicate with the rocks. In Fangorn, the forest. In more mundane realities, in order to communicate with something, that something ought to have a fairly advanced brain. In Middle Earth, things without brains can acquire fëa, and you can communicate with them. We have already discussed how a land might absorb something of the personality of the people who lived there, or echo in the aftermath of a strong event. I might suggest that this natural bleed of fëa might be a less structured variation of 'craftsmanship,' the putting of a bit of one's self into an item one builds.

What Legolas feels in Eregion and Fangorn is based on heightened acuity and attentuation with nature, it has nothing whatsover to do with telepathy. The Elves, by their very nature have better hearing, better sight, better acclimation to severe weather and a greater sense of the natural world. He was not "communicating" with nature, rather, he was able to gather an impression of the surroundings.

As far as the "telepathy" aspect of the Elves, there is no evidence it goes beyond the Eldar, as only the truly great Elves (along with Gandalf) were conversing in such a manner. Perhaps it didn't go beyond the Ringbearers themselves.

Edit: I had forgotten about the "Ósanwe-kenta or Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", an eight page postscrips by Tolkien written circa 1960 that explains Elven telepathy. Lammas Pengolodh (the alleged writer of the piece) refers to the Eldar as being in far greater control of their hröa than Men, hence the ability to communicate through the mind, and that the strength of will and leadership ("authority") is one of the principle means of strengthening such communication (hence, the ease with which Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Celeborn, all Eldar or Maia, and natural leaders, can converse together so). It might be conjectured that an authoritarian such as Galadriel could speak to Frodo in such a manner because the One Ring gave him the strength of will to do so.

I've got to read up on this.

[Galadriel55]

It all depends on how you define "telepathy". Is it literally "communicating on an invisible level", or is it just "having an invisible/subtle (?) connection".

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

The Dwarves, at least, believed there was (only one Durin). <quote from Apdx A>

Five times an heir ... received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to BE (Durin) the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

While this is only presented as something the Dwarves "believe", we know Tolkien did allow for Elvish reincarnation, and Dwarvish fate is something we know very little about - so it doesn't seem (to me) all that far fetched that one special Dwarvish Fea might remain within Ea and be reborn (reincarnated) multiple times. Why not?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The Dwarves, at least, believed there was (only one Durin). <quote from Apdx A>While this is only presented as something the Dwarves "believe", we know Tolkien did allow for Elvish reincarnation, and Dwarvish fate is something we know very little about - so it doesn't seem (to me) all that far fetched that one special Dwarvish Fea might remain within Ea and be reborn (reincarnated) multiple times. Why not?

Yes, and Tolkien's (very) late writings point to the fea of Durin returning to an uncorrupted body.

Strange as it might seem: the special connection between a particular fea and its particular hroa looks to have became important to Tolkien: he thus abandoned Elves being reborn (as children) as a form of reincarnation, because they would have 'new' bodies... and JRRT seemingly found an idea to avoid this with the bearded folk as well.

See Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, for late thoughts on this notion.