WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[satansaloser2005]

Huh. Well, that's interesting.

[Inziladun]

I find it curious that both G55 and Rikae voted for Pitch yesterDay, even though G55 later retracted and went kamikaze. I'll try to look at that a bit more closely later.

[McCaber]

Well, I'm here for my half of the day.

There was a lot to read, but unfortunately it seems to me that Rikae was the KD, so that invalidates a lot of what I had to say about her. Now I need to go back and reread what she said and see if I can learn anything from this.

One thing I can ask that I didn't get a chance to yesterDay: Nerwen, what did you mean about me being "shifty"? I looked over my posts and it seems remarkably consistent to me. I thought that G55 was a Forger before that day even started, but I was beaten to the punch with that accusation. Didn't make it any less true or in line with my thought processes.

[Mithalwen]

We have no proof though that they were your thought processes. You weren't exactly in a rush to share your insight... focussing on an rejected plan and the dead was a relative priority in the time you had available?

[Mithalwen]

In fact you don't mention her until you vote for her as far as I can see. You dont' question or challenge her even though you were posting during the same time. You think she is a forger before the day starts but wait nearly eight hours to mention it...no no idea why Nerwen might have thought that shifty....

[Boromir88]

One more thing, in my head, I've ruled out Finduilas, Mith, and sally as possible forgers. Congrats to you, if any of you are.

That leaves...

Eruhen
McCaber
Nerwen
Phantom
Pitch
Inzil

Possible 2 Forgers, or 1 KD, and 1 Forger. (Although wasn't it Rikae who said "if there's a loophole, let's exploit it?" Eh, kind of sounds like she was the KD there).

I'm about to move Inzil out of the above list, but I'm not as sure on him as the other three yet.

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In fact you don't mention her until you vote for her as far as I can see. You dont' question or challenge her even though you were posting during the same time. You think she is a forger before the day starts but wait nearly eight hours to mention it...no no idea why Nerwen might have thought that shifty....

All right, I guess I can see it now.

In my defence, I was extremely tired last night and I had forgotten if I had brought up what I saw in the votes from the day before or not. Landscaping is tough work sometimes.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Wow, I actually like phantom's plan for once. He's losing his edge.

Nah, really, if there are loopholes we should exploit them - that's part of the game. I kind of doubt the KD feels/will feel likewise, but it's interesting to see the reactions: Eruhen's claim that it's no different from an ordinary day one is absurd and has a whiff of desperation about it, and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

I'm going to go refresh my memory of the rules and roles...

First post. Thinks tp's plan for the KD is a good one. An innocent might say that, but a true baddie may also for appearances. The bit about knowing Cabbie wasn't the KD comes up later.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Does this mean the KD isn't revealed on his death?

Wilwa, a few posts later, brought up the fact that at the time, the KD would, in fact, have been revealed as such upon xyr death.

No vote from her Day 1.

[Finduilas]

I have not seen any reason, other than being a forge kill, to think Rikae the KD, therefore, I'm going with it being a case of the KD being extremely clever, and convincing the other forge member to suspect and kill Rikae.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Um, because I'm one of the three people he named?

This was in response to Pitch referencing her earlier remark about "knowing" McCaber wasn't the KD. Why would that prove it? Because McCaber could be seen as following the tp plan?

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, duh. I didn't say "I can prove he isn't"... I can by dying, of course, and it will give me more time for WoW, too.
Actually I can't even say "I know he isn't" since I suppose it is possible the KD could deliberately try to lead the village astray, but I don't consider that too terribly likely (although on second thought it could help win the trust of his fellow wolves and keep him alive longer, too).

This was also in response to Pitch, who'd said this.

Obviously, she could not have known McCaber to be the KD, even if he was in the pack with her. Now she backs off, but at the same time talks of a KD strategy to deceive the wolves.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Anyway - I'm terribly sorry I didn't vote or participate much yesterDay - I hadn't checked when the DL was and was distracted by RL - but I'll try to do better from here on. I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.

We know now, of course, that Bom was not the KD.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I didn't think Bom got the inside joke, though, Cab - he seemed to read something else into it (or want others to, anyway).

McCaber was talking of Bom, saying he had "leaned on" me for not "catching an inside joke". I don't remember what that was even about.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Not so... she said:



So Bom was not the KD, but none of the narrations will be from the KD's perspective from now on, and we (and the forge members) won't know if he dies.
Not caught up, still reading...

A response to Finduilas, who had said careful reading of the narration could still give the observant info on whether the KD had died.

Originally Posted by Rikae

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

The first part was responding to Sally's take on the aforementioned comment by Finduilas. Sally had said that if the good side could figure the narration out, so could the Forgers.

Rikae defends G55, and strangely casts doubt over something I considered a damning bit of evidence against the latter, the overreaction against Pitch's nonexistent "case" on her.

As for the "literature" remark, that was the subject of an interesting back and forth between Rikae, Boro, and tp.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Yes, tp, I think it's misleading and I consider it unlikely that it's only partially so.

Pitch, when I say I don't think she thought so, that is exactly what I mean... not that she didn't say so. I don't trust you for obvious reasons, therefore I'm rather inclined to trust her.

Doesn't trust Pitch, but does trust G55?

Originally Posted by Rikae

G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

After G55's self vote, the same post in which G55 said Pitch and tp were evil.

Originally Posted by Rikae

And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?

That was to Boro, who'd said he didn't like her saying Sally was talking as she would if she was a wolf.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Is that the best you can do?

++Pitch

And a vote for Pitch, who had just indicated he had no idea what tp was talking about here I guess, though Pitch didn't quote.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

Well, what to say about that?

Originally Posted by Rikae

I suppose the fact that this person does not deserve modfiring would be pretty good evidence that this person is not what he hints at being...

I really don't know quite what to make of the last few posts, except that the situation for the Forgers is too precarious for them to have used a kill on her without a very good reason.

[Nerwen]

I'm looking through Rikae's posts now, but I just wanted to mention something that's occurred to me: she might *not* have been killed for something she said during the Day at all.

EDIT: X'd with Zil.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm looking through Rikae's posts now, but I just wanted to mention something that's occurred to me: she might *not* have been killed for something she said during the Day at all.

If it was for something she said during Nightly chats, that's of absolutely no value to us. I think we have to focus on what we can see.

[Nerwen]

Rikae, Day One.
#66.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Wow, I actually like phantom's plan for once. He's losing his edge.

Nah, really, if there are loopholes we should exploit them - that's part of the game. I kind of doubt the KD feels/will feel likewise, but it's interesting to see the reactions: Eruhen's claim that it's no different from an ordinary day one is absurd and has a whiff of desperation about it, and I don't know what McCobbler is doing (but I know for a fact he's not the KD!)

I'm going to go refresh my memory of the rules and roles...

#67.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Okay, no cobbler (but he'll always be McCobbler to me).

This seems to be a flaw in the plan, though:
"This player will appear to be one of the members of the Valley Forge."

Note: these two posts could mean anything, either way. Though her later explanation makes sense, the bolded phrase is a possible hint.



Rikae, Day Two.

#129.

Originally Posted by Rikae

How can you know that "for a fact", unless you're a member of the Forge and he is not?
Um, because I'm one of the three people he named?

#135.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, duh. I didn't say "I can prove he isn't"... I can by dying, of course, and it will give me more time for WoW, too.
Actually I can't even say "I know he isn't" since I suppose it is possible the KD could deliberately try to lead the village astray, but I don't consider that too terribly likely (although on second thought it could help win the trust of his fellow wolves and keep him alive longer, too).

Anyway - I'm terribly sorry I didn't vote or participate much yesterDay - I hadn't checked when the DL was and was distracted by RL - but I'll try to do better from here on. I do think we can learn something from Bom's posts. Can we be sure he wasn't the KD? I don't think our moddess ever answered the question about the KD's role being revealed, right? That wouldput Phantom and Cabbie in a bad light (fake KD bluff attempt?) and whoever went after Bom, while a truly evil Bom would do the opposite.
I'd love to know for sure, well, how much we know. Moddess?

Note: that's... interesting. At first sight it implicates phantom and McCaber pretty heavily– but could the stuff I've highlighted be a code for "Hey village, what follows is not true"? Or "take what I say with a grain of salt?" And could the Forge have picked up on this? Also– is eager to suggest the KD might already be dead.


#138. (replying to McCaber at #137.)

Originally Posted by Rikae

I didn't think Bom got the inside joke, though, Cab - he seemed to read something else into it (or want others to, anyway).

#188. (replying to Finduilas at #176); quotes admin rules.)

Originally Posted by Rikae

So Bom was not the KD, but none of the narrations will be from the KD's perspective from now on, and we (and the forge members) won't know if he dies.

#211.

Originally Posted by Rikae

This is exactly what I would say as a wolf if I felt the intelligence of the wolves had been insulted (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them wolves - they are wolves in spirit).

I don't have much to go on at this point, but I would like to say that I don't think the case against G55 based on her vote yesterDay is a good one at all - if anything, it was a vote and an argument unlikely to come from an actual wolf. As for her defense of me, I don't think Pitch was making a case at that time and I kind of don't think she thought so either...

Does anyone else find a certain person's musings on literature to be - interesting? I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

Note: This is an odd one. If Rikae was indeed the KD, then it would follow that G55 must have been a real wolf– therefore defending her here is certainly odd (but see #135.). Meanwhile it of course seems to implicate Sally (but again, see #135.) I can't find who Rikae is referring to in that last sentence, but I think it's Pitch.


#228 (Replying to Pitch at #215 and phantom at (probably) #224)

Originally Posted by Rikae

Yes, tp, I think it's misleading and I consider it unlikely that it's only partially so.

Pitch, when I say I don't think she thought so, that is exactly what I mean... not that she didn't say so. I don't trust you for obvious reasons, therefore I'm rather inclined to trust her.

Note: "Her" being G55 of the Forge. Could she here be trying to play off one Forge member against the other?


#230. (Response to G55's self-vote)

Originally Posted by Rikae

G55, you do realize being lynched by day is no longer much help, right? Or is it?

#231.(reply to Boro at #233 (possibly).

Originally Posted by Rikae

And yes, Boro, I do think it's suspicious when I see someone reacting as I would as a wolf, especially if it's someone that shares relevant personality traits. Is that so strange?

#233.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Is that the best you can do?

++Pitch

#238.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Don't you think it's strange that someone hasn't been modfired?

#242.

Originally Posted by Pitch

I suppose the fact that this person does not deserve modfiring would be pretty good evidence that this person is not what he hints at being...

This, I presume, refers to the exchange between Pitch and phantom, during which Pitch certainly seems to be implying he's the KD.


Conclusion: Was probably killed due to a combination of hints dropped at various points, her general preoccupation with the role, and her case(s) on Pitch and/or Sally. (And as I said, possibly some behind-the-scenes stuff we don't know about.)

EDIT:X'd since Boro #267.
EDIT2: Couple of attributions left out. Note: Rikae doesn't always make it clear what post she's replying to, so I'm not sure all of these are right, anyway.

[McCaber]

It's probably the safest to play like she was the KD, because if the rest of the Forge thought she was best dead we can assume she'd at least lead us on the right track.

But if the real KD is still out there, the game is yours. Run it as you'd see fit.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by McCaber

There was a lot to read, but unfortunately it seems to me that Rikae was the KD, so that invalidates a lot of what I had to say about her. Now I need to go back and reread what she said and see if I can learn anything from this.

Well it's possible the Forge members got it wrong, but which would mean there is only 1 left. Or not, and there's 2. I think it's pretty clear that Pitch has been up to something. And the only ones who would know enough to not be totally confused by the situations would be members of the Forge.

I won't have much time today or this weekend. I'm taking a trip for work tomorrow morning and won't be back until Sunday. I'll likely vote sometime before I leave later.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well it's possible the Forge members got it wrong, but which would mean there is only 1 left.

Or is it possible that one of them killed the other with her consent to make it look like she was the KD?

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Or is it possible that one of them killed the other with her consent to make it look like she was the KD?

With this many innocents left, I'd say it's unlikely and extremely risky. But then again opinion is divided on the subject of how unified the Forge should be acting. Possible, but unlikely.

If Rikae was indeed the KD, this comment seems quite enlightening:

Originally Posted by Rikae

I think tp may be quite right with his wolf-on-wolf argument.

But I still have no idea what was up between her and Pitch at the end of the day. Maybe you just had to be there.

[the phantom]

Just sitting back enjoying the talk. But just to be sure that everyone is giving this thing proper thought, here is a little guide-

When considering Rikae as the KD, why do you think her death is the obvious sign?

Remember, the Forge has no idea who the KD is, so for them to off a suspected KD Rikae would've needed to give them ample reason to think she was the KD.

Did she?

If she did, what precisely did she do and who are the suspects?

If you don't think her behavior matches, why else would she be killed? (Surely there is another explanation.)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well, I'm here for my half of the day.

There was a lot to read, but unfortunately it seems to me that Rikae was the KD, so that invalidates a lot of what I had to say about her. Now I need to go back and reread what she said and see if I can learn anything from this.

One thing I can ask that I didn't get a chance to yesterDay: Nerwen, what did you mean about me being "shifty"? I looked over my posts and it seems remarkably consistent to me. I thought that G55 was a Forger before that day even started, but I was beaten to the punch with that accusation. Didn't make it any less true or in line with my thought processes.

Well, it's like this: as Mithalwen has already mentioned, whatever you thought, you said nothing whatever about G55... until after various people had mentioned her as suspicious. And then, your explanation seemed oddly "off", as if you had simply picked up *that* people were talking about her, not *why*. This may have just been a case of someone pressed for time– I did say it was a tentative vote– but it does comes across as, well, shifty. See?

Okay. I suppose the thing to do now is re-read yesterDay in the light of Rikae's death.

EDIT:X'd with a Boro, a Pitch and a McCaber.