Tolkien's Funny Bone

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for all the replies! Attitudes towards humour and comedy make for some very interesting observations, I think.

Morth, I doubt we need to go back to Latin. I think anyone familiar with The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary will be well aware of how words change meaning, such as the Old English wan, which began as 'dark, gloomy, black' to become applied to pale or faint things, a change in etymology which Tolkien worked on.

Puddleglum, so nice to see you back and around! You raise the intriguing point that Tolkien was writing about 'great stories that never end', which is a rather modern concept in that it is the process that receives attention rather than the denouement, despite his ideas about eucatastrophe.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Your quotation to me is a good indication as to why it was foolish for some medieval critics to try to define every tale as either a tragedy or comedy. A tale can be both or neither and still be an excellent tale.

Critical theory is still attempting to do what those critics tried, however, in that it attempts to explain how literature works on us. I think, in fairness to the medieval and classical critics, it can said they were trying to understand how literary works affect us rather than solely defining quality.

In looking at the progress of The Silm, we can find far more whimsey and humour in the early versions, particularly in BoLT, than in the edition which Christopher Tolkien produced. Tinfang Warbel comes to mind most immediately, as well as the strong element of mirth and joy in the Cottage of Lost Play. yes, the stories are separate stories, but I find it intriguing to see the variations in tone.

Originally Posted by Morth[/quote

But there are elements of satire and dark humor throughout the Divine Comedy, particularly in Hell (Inferno), where Dante has relegated many of his political enemies (like Filippo Argenti, who is torn to pieces along the River Styx), and a pope or two (Boniface VIII and Celestine V). And considering that many virtuous "pagans" are better off in Hell than many Christians, there is a sardonic sense of humor in Dante's jibes at the established order, higher clergy and aristocrats in early Renaissance Italy

I think one major idea current today about comedy is its subversiveness, starting with Aristophanes' Lysistrata. Parody for example can be pleasant and respectful or undercutting. Is there anything similarly sardonic or subversive in the Silm?

(N.B. I should not attempt to write posts here while commenting on FB at the same time. )

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Critical theory is still attempting to do what those critics tried, however, in that it attempts to explain how literature works on us. I think, in fairness to the medieval and classical critics, it can said they were trying to understand how literary works affect us rather than solely defining quality.

My understanding is that it classical works were mainly preserved through Arab versions and Arab commentators and it was they who began to take essays concerned only with drama to apply to all literature. The early medieval European commentators followed on from that.

Bluntly, I indeed don’t see that modern commentators do much better, which you seem to agree on. Note the academic critical response to Tolkien which is notoriously negative. In a previous era it was Dickens who was outside the pale to academics. And Shakespeare was much denigrated until the academicians recognized comic relief.

First people just liked certain works, and then the academicians invented their theories about why they worked. First comes the popularity contest, then critics who attempt to explain why the work are popular.

Academic discussion about particular works or classes of work are often fine, but academic rules are not general enough to cover works that are just a little outside the norm. Works of art can be as individual as people.

The basic problem seems to me to be that different people have different tastes and no critical theory had yet, so far as I am aware, gotten around that. The rules invented by critics only work for some people some of the time, at best.

In looking at the progress of The Silm, we can find far more whimsey and humour in the early versions, particularly in BoLT, than in the edition which Christopher Tolkien produced. Tinfang Warbel comes to mind most immediately, as well as the strong element of mirth and joy in the Cottage of Lost Play. yes, the stories are separate stories, but I find it intriguing to see the variations in tone.

Yes. Tolkien seems to be originally mostly attempting to imitate William Morris’ fantasies which also have lighter moments. But then, in his heroic verse, he throws out all the whimsey. Then in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Ring he puts it back.

I think one major idea current today about comedy is its subversiveness, starting with Aristophanes' Lysistrata. Parody for example can be pleasant and respectful or undercutting. Is there anything similarly sardonic or subversive in the Silm?

Well almost everything said about the sons of Fëanor could be presented as undercutting, as an indication that rule by heredity mostly doesn’t work, except in the sense that any lord is better than a war between potential lords, or no lord. But I don’t think that that was a message intended by Tolkien. On the contrary, that is one of the messages of Famer Giles of Ham, which is very comic.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"My understanding is that it classical works were mainly preserved through Arab versions and Arab commentators and it was they who began to take essays concerned only with drama to apply to all literature. The early medieval European commentators followed on from that."



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No, not the literary works and commentaries thereon. The Arabs were interested in the scientific, mathematical and medical works, and thus books like Ptolemy's Astronomy became known first in the West via Arabic translations by way of Spain (hence the usual title Almagest, and Arabic star-names still in use); but by far the majority of classical literature was preserved by the Byzantines (the Roman Empire everyone seems to forget about), and began making its way westward starting with the Crusades.

[jallanite]

You seem to be correct about Dante’s use of comedy. But Arabic works dealing with comedy were very important.

Aristotles’s Poetics was translated into Arabic in medieval times, where it was elaborated upon by Arabic writers and philosophers, such as Abu Bischr, his pupil Al-Farabi, Avicenna, and Averroes.

They applied Aristotle’s dictums to Arabic poetic themes and defined comedy as simply the “art of reprehension”, and made no reference to light and cheerful events or happy endings. Comedy was translated as hija (satirical poetry). Many early European critics followed this and defined comedy as only satire. Admittedly Dante seems not to have done so, following some other tradition.

My understanding is that it was these Arabic writings that were one of the main foundations of western critical theory. But these Arabic writings were indeed not responsible for comedy meaning any “low” poem.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Unfortunately

1) The second book of the Poetics, covering comedy, was lost, and
2) The Arabic translation of the first book, on tragedy, was a very bad one (IIRC an indirect one via Aramaic)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Incidentally, the morning after the Birthday Party, especially Bilbo's parting giftes, is very funny.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Unfortunately

1) The second book of the Poetics, covering comedy, was lost...

One of the central plot points of Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose. Great book!

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Unfortunately

1) The second book of the Poetics, covering comedy, was lost, and
2) The Arabic translation of the first book, on tragedy, was a very bad one (IIRC an indirect one via Aramaic)

True enough, although the source for the Arabic version of Aristotle’s Poetics was actually in Syriac, a late descendant of Aramaic.

That this translation is now partially lost is irrelevant because it was complete when early Arab commentators used it. Indeed, that the Arabs were using a bad translation helps explain some of their misinterpretations.

The surviving works were influential in medieval Europe, particularly Avarroes (who indeed did not have access to the Poetics). Late medieval and Renaissance writers sometimes preferred Avarroes’ interpretation to better translations because they preferred Avarroes’ humanism.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes for a reasonable discussion.

Again, this has nothing to do with Dante’s use of Comedy as the name of his poem.