Sex Amongst the Maiar (and the Other Beings in Arda)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In the HoME essay "The laws and customs of the Eldar" he makes it very clear that Elves enjoy sex but it is pretty much a phase in their lives and once they have got it out of their system and had all the children they wanted they devote their creative instincts to other things. Also seems from the same essay that conception is an act of will.
Since the sexual act is an essential part of contracting an Elvish marriage and there is often a lengthy spell between marriage and the birth of children it would also seem that Elves had sex for pleasure / pair bonding reasons rather than merely to reproduce.

I've added the bolding here to Mithalwen's post,because it is the part I wish to discuss in particular.

If conception amongst the elves is an act of will, that is, if elves procreative only when they choose to procreate, does that not mean that Eru isn't part of the procreation? It would appear to be another version of the free will question.

That would appear to differ from at least some Christian ideology which claims that all pregnancies derive from God. Not that Tolkien's legendarium can't differ. Just an observation.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

In the bodies of old Men. That kind of ruins your assumption.

Agan, just how many old men have you known? Oh, wait a minute. That sounds too much like knowing in the biblical sense and too personal. Forget it.

Let me put it this way instead.

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

We mustn't forget the late Lord Frey.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Agan, just how many old men have you known? Oh, wait a minute. That sounds too much like knowing in the biblical sense and too personal. Forget it.

Let me put it this way instead.

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

My dearest B-B, it was never my intention to imply that. I was speaking about old as in 'thousands of years old', which, you have to admit, might make some difference, even if not in the upper department.

(And yes, your original phrasing made me take a second look, but since I'm not an Ainu, this is not the time nor place. Suffice to say, I find it unlikely I'll ever know any man as old as Gandalf. )

As for procreation of free will, there's this part in Laws and Customs which is quite interesting:

There were seldom more than four children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few, and eager to increase their kind, (included in first version: before the weight of years lay on them), Fëanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him.

I see two possible explanations here:

1. Only First Age Elves were eager to increase their kind
2. Ilúvatar was eager to avoid overpopulation later

The text basically says that either the former is true, or the Eldar spent a considerable amount of their time in the bedroom in the First Age.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

We mustn't forget the late Lord Frey.

And you remember why he was called so? Because he came late.
Sorry.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

You asked a good question, Bêthberry; but the problem is that in the case of the Ringwraiths you can't compare like with like. They ceased to be Men centuries ago, thanks to the Nine which prolonged their lives and turned them into wraiths, although they may still look that way.

In the same way Smeagol, due to the influence of the One Ring, from being a hobbit came to be something else, his life prolonged far beyond what was normal for his race. I liked the fact that Tolkien never called Gollum a hobbit, only saying once that he might look like a very ancient hobbit.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I did not have the time earlier to read everyone's responses to this thread, but I am glad that it sparked a good (and mostly serious ) discussion. I don't have much to add, but I enjoyed reading quotes from the Tolkien books that I haven't read (I don't have a complete HoME).

One thing to add here:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is it in fact a valid assumption that old people no longer enjoy sexual relations?

There were cases of American Civil War veterans taking wives as recently as the 1930's, and the man who owns the company that my father works at is probably ninety years old and has an eight-year-old son. That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.

After reading this thread, my current opinion is that the "higher" beings in Middle-earth had the power to either desire or not desire intimacy with each other. I still can't see Sauron having any inclination to perform the act of sex. My feelings on the physical bodies of these beings (when they are in a humaniod state, anyway) are thus: they had bodies that worked much the same as ours. Going back to eating and drinking, we know that the Valar, for instance, ate and drank, so therefore they must have needed a digestive tract and some way to dispose of their waste, so why not also have reproductive organs?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.

No, that is exactly the point! The Wizards, and it is stated explicitly, were incarnate for a reason. They were exposed to all possible problems (and delights) mortal inhabitants of M-E could face. To put it in a more straightforward manner, it is not unimaginable for me to have a Wizard decide (Melianesque, if you find that easier to imagine with such comparison) "hey, I found a wonderful mortal woman and we fell in love and I want to spend my life with her in a cottage hidden in the mountains, screw the war with Sauron". It would not be any different from, for instance, Radagast deciding that he'd rather spend his days tramping in the wilderness.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, that is exactly the point! The Wizards, and it is stated explicitly, were incarnate for a reason. They were exposed to all possible problems (and delights) mortal inhabitants of M-E could face. To put it in a more straightforward manner, it is not unimaginable for me to have a Wizard decide (Melianesque, if you find that easier to imagine with such comparison) "hey, I found a wonderful mortal woman and we fell in love and I want to spend my life with her in a cottage hidden in the mountains, screw the war with Sauron". It would not be any different from, for instance, Radagast deciding that he'd rather spend his days tramping in the wilderness.

Ah, I see your point. It is interesting though, that Radagast fell in love with animals and the wilderness, and not some woman.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Ah, I see your point. It is interesting though, that Radagast fell in love with animals and the wilderness, and not some woman.

I guess that would come back to what you were talking about with Bethberry, and with which I agree, as in, by no means would I want to diminish any sexual desires among older people, but generally it probably isn't as common or as strong, and with this I would say that the Wizards were indeed not of "that cathegory" and so their distractions would come from different hobbies, interests, and so on. Especially if you take into account that they were in the position of having an entirely new world to explore, literally.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Ah, I see your point. It is interesting though, that Radagast fell in love with animals and the wilderness, and not some woman.

Perhaps the goat sounded like Stevie Nicks.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I am resurrecting this thread because I love it and it's my baby and I can't let it die. My ideas have changed since I originally posted this and I feel like I should add something.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that Sauron was Morgoth's mate yet....

Okay, I'm putting the idea out there about Sauron being Morgoth's (um?) concubine? Lover?

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I just noticed this. Is it a metaphorical statement? Surely it is well-established that Sauron was never just a big floating eyeball. Nonetheless I can't think that Sauron, whose first fixation was Order and later simply hatred for those who appeared to obstruct his vision of Order, would have had much interest in anything sexual even at his most incarnate level of spiritual degradation. Sauron seems to me to have been an obsessive person, who in the Third Age at least had two overriding goals: the conquest of the West of Middle-earth and the recovery of the Rings of Power (and especially, of course, the One Ring). He does not strike me as the kind of person who put those fixations aside for the sake of his leisure.

After Sauron's physical form was destroyed, he was not a giant eyeball but, well, I imagine him as being just energy at that point. He still has a will and opinions, but it's not like he can act them out. I guess he's mostly like a ghost in physicality.

Anyway, I agree with you about Sauron being obsessive. He always struck me as being so totally focused on dominating the world, that he didn't care a bit about anything else. Perhaps he used sex as a way to dominate his subordinates when he was still Morgoth's right hand man. But I still view Sauron as being too busy with the whole megalomania thing to be bothered with the relationship or even physical part of sex.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

But I still view Sauron as being too busy with the whole megalomania thing to be bothered with the relationship or even physical part of sex.

That makes me think of Bored of the Rings, which had Sorhed (Sauron) and Schlob (Shelob) being the parents of "nine strapping wraiths".

Really though, why would Maia want or need physical relationships? They weren't necessary from a biological perspective. Maia were only "guests" in Arda, not part of it (Melian is a special case: her being smitten with Thingol was plainly something fated to happen: she had no will in the matter).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

There were cases of American Civil War veterans taking wives as recently as the 1930's, and the man who owns the company that my father works at is probably ninety years old and has an eight-year-old son. That being said, I don't think that the Istari would have come to Middle-earth with sexual desires. Such desires could become a distraction from their mission, and I don't think that the Valar nor the wizards would have set out without thought for that.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I guess that would come back to what you were talking about with Bethberry, and with which I agree, as in, by no means would I want to diminish any sexual desires among older people, but generally it probably isn't as common or as strong, and with this I would say that the Wizards were indeed not of "that cathegory" and so their distractions would come from different hobbies, interests, and so on. Especially if you take into account that they were in the position of having an entirely new world to explore, literally.

I think it is probably not too remiss to point out that in the human species there are differences in the development of sexual appetites of the sexes, with women peaking much later than men. In medieval literature (Chaucer comes to mind) the elderly who still pursue sexual appetite are ridiculed, but that is a cultural value rather than normative behaviour.

[must go find something I want to reply to Aganzir now, so will edit this later.]

[denethorthefirst]

I think that there are two forms of incarnation:

A "biological" incarnation, where the ainu actually forms a body that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).
I guess that this form of Incarnation is much more limiting for the innate Power of the Ainu and that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could be much more easily killed than an Ainu that incarnated himself in the other way. It also seems that they did not to do it entirely out of free will: the Istari had to because it was a requirement for their mission, Melian did it out of Love for Thingol and to conceive, and the Boldogs probably because they lacked the Power for mightier Forms or where maybe forced by Melkor in order to procreate with Orcs.

A "unique" (for lack of a better word) incarnation where the ainu creates a wholly new and original form for his spirit that acts more like a "biological machine" than an actual body. It could either lack an organ system, or have an organ system that is much more complex than that of the incarnates or animals. I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the bodies of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like for example a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form". They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way were also physically a lot stronger and could better project their innate Power because they (rather voluntary) chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive or impregnate other incarnates because they would not have been "compatible".

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

A "biological" incarnation, where the ainu actually forms a body that has a complete organ system. This is the form of Incarnation that the Istari, Melian and also the Umaia in orcform (Boldogs) went through. These Ainur actually became human, elvish (or orcish) in form (and dependent on nourishment and sleep), but can now also reproduce with other true incarnates (i dont think that two incarnated ainu could reproduce).

I don't know about the ultimate legitimacy of Boldog, since that's HOME stuff, but the incarnations of Melian and the Istari are certainly more bound to the physical world than their Maia brethren.

The Istari, as you say, were housed in actual bodies, which they could not forsake without "dying", as a consequence of the nature of their mission in Middle-earth.
In their case, reproducing with any of the Children of Ilúvatar was not only contrary to their mission, but could also have had serious consequences.

Melian's embodiment was indeed voluntary, and I see it as a parallel with Arwen's later situation with Aragorn.
In order for the immortal Melian to be betrothed to a "lesser" being in Middle-earth, she had to bring herself to Thingol's level, so to speak. She took on basically thelife of the Eldar, though I think it rather unfair that after Thingol's death she was allowed to simply head back to Aman and "dwell on her sorrows".

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

I think the bodies of the Balrogs and the incarnated Sauron where of this kind. If the body of the Balrogs were completely "biological" (like a human body) they would have burnt to death a long time ago. Ainur like that are probably also much harder to kill, because you cant just stab them in the heart (there might be no heart, or there are three hearts! everything is possible), the opponents actually had to destroy or somehow "break" the "form". They are also less (if at all) dependent on nourishment and sleep. I guess that Ainur that incarnated in such a way could also better project their innate Power because they chose and created a form that completely suited them, but they probably couldn't conceive because they would not have been "compatible".

I think Sauron's (and the Balrogs') embodiment was required in order to have the maximum effect on the physical world in Middle-earth. . The appearance of their forms seems to be mainly connected with the state of their inner spirit. Sauron, until the destruction of his body in the Fall of Númenor, was able to appear fair and noble. But after he returned to Middle-earth after the Fall, he only looked terrible and evil. His spiritual state had become consumed with hate and a lust for domination, which could have been reflected physically, and maybe too the Valar took steps to deny him the ability to look less threatening, and so make it harder for him to deceive Elves, Men, and Dwarves ever after.

[denethorthefirst]

I dont think that Melians Incarnation in elvish form was all that voluntary: she was madly in love (goodbye free will and clear thinking) with thingol and incarnated herself for him, and in order to conceive.

Why do you think it unfair that she was allowed back to Valinor, why should the Valar prohibit her return? She didnt do anything evil as far as i know. You could say that she was abandoning Doriath ... but her Husband was now in Valinor (Halls of Mandos) so she was probably torn but ultimately decided to follow Thingol and await his re-embodiment. It is a bit questionable, but i can understand her.

"Sauron, until the destruction of his body in the Fall of Númenor, was able to appear fair and noble. But after he returned to Middle-earth after the Fall, he only looked terrible and evil. His spiritual state had become consumed with hate and a lust for domination, which could have been reflected physically, and maybe too the Valar took steps to deny him the ability to look less threatening, and so make it harder for him to deceive Elves, Men, and Dwarves ever after."

Sauron was chlothed until the destruction of Numenor, he only became incarnate AFTER his beautiful form was destroyed in the downfall. I dont think the Valar had anything to do with the change of his form. Its more like a general law in Ea that the form somehow reflects the spirit, and evil beings, after some point, were no longer able to "mask" their true nature and character.

Of course, some kind of body (or "clothing") for the spirit was necessary in order to manipulate the physical world, thats why most of the Ainur appear "clothed" in order to interact with the incarnates and the world. But i´m speculating about two different forms of incarnation not clothing. I think its obvious that a merely clothed Ainu would not be capable to conceive or impregnate incarnates (wether elves, men or orcs). I guess it could have been possible for Melian to have some kind of sexual intercourse with Thingol while being clothed, but i think she had to be fully incarnated in order to conceive.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

I dont think that Melians Incarnation in elvish form was all that voluntary: she was madly in love (goodbye free will and clear thinking) with thingol and incarnated herself for him, and in order to conceive.

Well, I wouldn't think she was given no choice in the matter when it came to being with Thingol; only that she was given a mandate that she become truly embodied in oder to do so.

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Why do you think it unfair that she was allowed back to Valinor, why should the Valar prohibit her return? She didnt do anything evil as far as i know. You could say that she was abandoning Doriath ... but her Husband was now in Valinor (Halls of Mandos) so she was probably torn but ultimately decided to follow Thingol and await his re-embodiment. It is a bit questionable, but i can understand her.

I don't know, it just seems like Melian had it all: the bliss of a long term sojourn among the Children in Middle-earth and a simple return to the Undying Lands afterward. She just seems to have had it both ways.